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V-9 Vortech install for #3544

svtlover

svtlover

CEG'er
Joined
Sep 24, 2008
Messages
97
Location
Washington State
Okay, decided a new thread is appropriate at this point. I've added the following comments from my last post in the "Vortech Build" thread, and I have yet more info since this last post:

Thanks for all the feedback. I've talked with some of you in the past, bought parts from some of you, I respect your opinions. I've had good success with my two Contours based in part on opinions and info from CEG. Regarding FI: Some new info since my last post: Yes, I want to DD it, but my Tour is not my only vehicle. My original idea was to get the most reliable NA performance I could - mission accomplished. But - I got the FI fever now. I've talked at length with Billy, forwarded to him my concerns regarding compression, reliability. Willing to bet many of you know him personally. He says this hybrid was built for FI - in fact, he was the one that pushed me in this direction. He assures me that it can handle up to 8psi. I talked with Vortech, and the boost level for a 2.5 would be 8 psi, but the boost for the 3.0 will of course be a little lower. Vortech says the V9 kit was designed for a stock block; however, at least from the feedback here, the Duratec just doesn't hold up to forced induction. Idk. Anyway, I've never added a s/c to any of my cars before, so this is new to me and I'm relying on opinions and whatever research I can do on my own. My opinion thus far is that the biggest problems with FI (in general) are bad tunes that run the mixture lean and/or high rpms. I think I've found a great tuner about 5 hours from me (Vancouver, WA) that has dyno'd at least one Contour (they got 211whp from a NA 2.5!). So, tune problem solved. With the 3L valves, heavy duty valve springs and Clevite rod bearings, this engine should hold up better at high rpms. Anyway, that's where I'm at so far.
 
[FONT=&quot]So, after cruising CEG, it looks like this is where I'm at: A stock 2.5 with a 44.5cc chamber is at 9.70 to 1; a 3.0 Hybrid is at 11.24 to 1. Even though my heads are Stage 2 heads, the chamber has not been enlarged. So, I'm assuming my engine is at 11.24 to 1 just like any other hybrid. Why the ratio increases despite the larger cylinders, I don't know. Apparently the CR can be as high as 11.4 or 11.55 to 1. So, that's my next question - what is my real CR for this engine? Even assuming my CR is 11.24 to 1, this does appear to be too high. Dyno tuning this engine after the s/c goes in - based on my limited knowledge - should be a nightmare, especially on pump gas which in my town maxxes out at 92 octane. Even with octane booster, with the brittle pistons in the Duratec, I'm risking detonation.

I did the math and the boost level should be at 6.6psi - quite modest and, with the exception of the compression ratio, perfect I think. I'm not trying to build the fastest Contour ever. Somewhere in the 340hp range is more than adequate (I'm not talking whp here). Does all of this sound correct so far?[/FONT]
 
Compression is way too high for forced induction. If you love to switch motors all the time then go for it, otherwise put forged everything inside it. If you don't have the funds for good parts then forget the whole thing, it won't work.

Compression near 9 to 1 is OK on premium. Boost makes more power than compression by far.
 
I feel your enthusiasm svtlover. But i'm with crewchief. Way too high of a comp ratio. We speak from experience, albeit T.C not S.C. The perfect tune won't save your engine. Long as you keep the stock rods & pistons, it's only a matter of time before it goes boom. DO NOT add F.I of any kind to a stock engine. I also finally went forged bottom end route. Had others warned me, i woulda gone the forged route earlier instead of swapping engines every 2-3yrs. I do believe that's because it only recently became the general concensus on here that our stock pistons & rods are made from snow flakes, & will crumble at the slightest pressure. Of course tho, you're welcome to try supercharging a well tuned stock block, & sometime in the future, you'll be explaining to a noob whether yours was a successful endeavor or not.
 
svtlover said:
So, I'm assuming my engine is at 11.24 to 1 just like any other hybrid. Why the ratio increases despite the larger cylinders, I don't know. Apparently the CR can be as high as 11.4 or 11.55 to 1. So, that's my next question - what is my real CR for this engine?
Click to expand...

No need to guess ..... buy a compression tester .... measure the actual pressure in the cylinder .... divide the result by 14.7 (at sea level etc) ....G.
 
Mechanical compression ratio is critical, compression tester will give you cylinder pressure, not the same.

The math just doe not hold up considering Cylinder pressure of 170 psi is not 11.56 to 1 mechanical. I have 220 lbs in my drag race engine and it has 16 to 1 mechanical compression ratio.
 
i guess the mechanical compression ratio calculated figure doesn't take into account variables like; the heating affect of compressing air, the cylinder filling design of the intake and the added volume of the fuel or valve and piston ring sealing efficacy etc... making the mech C.R just a static starting point.

Given the difference between the mech c.r. and cylinder pressure and considering the stock internals svtlover has ... do you think it may be far better to use the actual pressure created to inform choices, rather than a guesstimate derrived from mixed and matched parts.?.... ....G..


edit; is this a possible reason for the discrepancy ?


220 + 14.7 (atmos pressure not registered by the gauge) divided by 14.7 = 15.96 cr
 
Thanks for the feedback. I am going to look up "dynamic CR" and go from there. I need to get the cam profile - it has custom cams. From there I should be able to generate some numbers. For what it's worth, I bought the V-9 with plan A (installing it) in mind, but I also had a plan B, which is pretty simple: "new" kits are nearly impossible to find, so now I have it and someday, with the right engine, it's goin' in!


I know the prior owner/builder quite well - he's secretive about the cam profile but once I tell him what's going on, perhaps I can get the data. At this point I'm shelving the install until such a time that I am comfortable with my knowledge base. I think I'm looking at a complete tear down to go forged, but if I pull the heads and get the CR down to, say, 10.5 to 1 or so (I don't know if I can get it to 9.7 to 1), then perhaps it would be relatively safe, but no - changing my engine every 2 to 3 years is ridiculous. Vortech designed the kit for 9.70 to 1, so I don't really understand why the Duratec is so frail, but hey - it is what it is. I'm going to listen, learn, and not be an idiot.
 
The engine isn't "frail", but the connecting rods are just not meant for 300 hp. You can measure their life in months at that power level. Forged rods, low compression pistons, good wrist pins, and decent rings will turn it into a beast that can live. I have all the part numbers for the parts, most come from one place. Yes it will cost money, expect $2,000 in basic parts for the above components with new bearings and gaskets.

Those of us with built motors are not trying to make you spend money, we just went down the "cheap" route and it ended up costing twice as much. Don't be fooled into thinking you can have 340 HP on stock parts, it just won't live. I am sure the crank is good for 800 plus HP, the heads are good, cams will support 450 HP. Just the rods are junk.
 
crewchiefpro said:
The engine isn't "frail", but the connecting rods are just not meant for 300 hp. You can measure their life in months at that power level. Forged rods, low compression pistons, good wrist pins, and decent rings will turn it into a beast that can live. I have all the part numbers for the parts, most come from one place. Yes it will cost money, expect $2,000 in basic parts for the above components with new bearings and gaskets.

Those of us with built motors are not trying to make you spend money, we just went down the "cheap" route and it ended up costing twice as much. Don't be fooled into thinking you can have 340 HP on stock parts, it just won't live. I am sure the crank is good for 800 plus HP, the heads are good, cams will support 450 HP. Just the rods are junk.
Click to expand...
My bad OP, i got carried away. They truly aren't that weak. Neither are they really strong if we're honest. Stock 2.5s & 3.0s spin bearings pretty frequently. Once bearings go, the rods are next. So forcing air down their throats is just a recipe for disaster really.
 
Thanks guys it's all good. I have enough experience overall to know you can't - as Terry Haines says - "f'ook with physics". In all my builds over the years (none of which are this modified), I've always had the mentality that any mod should be done correctly, no matter what the cost, or don't do it. As I've said, Billy put Clevite rod bearings in, but sounds like the rods may still be a problem, and of course I still would have the high compression problem. Billy is a great guy, I respect his knowledge and thus his opinion, but all of the conventional knowledge and opinions I'm getting is that the engine won't hold up, even at 6.6psi. Idk for sure what to do, but typically I err on the side of caution.

Don I just may take you up on that parts list someday, and thanks for that. Right now, seeing as how I'm basically looking at a complete engine rebuild to be completely safe, I'm not sure what to do. One thing I do know is I don't have the money to pull the engine right now. It also seems ridiculous to do this because the hybrid I've got now is a real strong NA build that should last a long time. Typically I wait for something to break and then upgrade. Maybe I could sell this engine to Billy or somebody, who knows, but I'd get pennies on the dollar of course.
 
svtlover said:
Thanks for the feedback. I am going to look up "dynamic CR" and go from there. I need to get the cam profile - it has custom cams. From there I should be able to generate some numbers. For what it's worth, I bought the V-9 with plan A (installing it) in mind, but I also had a plan B, which is pretty simple: "new" kits are nearly impossible to find, so now I have it and someday, with the right engine, it's goin' in!
Click to expand...

i'd never heard of dynamic compression ratio, so i looked it up too ........ i found this

http://www.empirenet.com/pkelley2/DynamicCR.html

From what i understand of this, if you choose camshafts with a later valve closing profile, you may lower the actual compression ratio far enough to allow the use of the Vortech on a hybrid. (the advantage being no low down lag like low compression turbo engines have) I'd definately get professional advice on that. I recall being told the SE cam's are better for FI rather than SVT cam's. I'd check that info too.

You mentioned the heads... if you did some porting and shaping of the combustion chambers, that may shave the C.R. down a bit.

All this is food for thought and it would probably be better to build a purpose built engine .. but i like to explore stuff cos you never know what you might discover in the process ... ....G.


Found this on boosting high compression motors http://www.mustangandfords.com/how-t...ression-ratio/ enjoy.
 
Yes Gorman I'm looking into it right now. Trying to get the cams profile from Billy now. Thanks very much for the dynamic CR info, it's VERY helpful. Btw the link to mustangandfords is compromised; it gave me some kind of phishing virus. Had to do a system restore. Anyway, obviously a purpose-built engine is the way to go for maximum reliability. If the longer duration cams e provide a much lower DCR, I may still consider installing the Vortech though. Idk
 
wow a phishing virus ??

i just clicked on that link several times and nothing came up on my computer. What anti virus are you running ? Even the free AVG picks up iffy web pages and cleans them. That is a direct link from yahoo.... that should have been flagged up as a dodgey web page by their server.Does the forum server have some filtering check ? I'm sorry if that was my fault ... just can't see any issue from my computer. Go into your internet settings and check you have the 'back door locked' good and tight.

I think if you build an engine from the ground up with ARP studs and head gaskets that can take the heat and pressure ... you should be golden .... not to mention a long way over 300bhp.


Last night i read about a guy who built a 350bhp 4 wheel drive ST220 with a Vortech ( i think you have Fusions instead of ST220's).... i won't post the link, but it had some very very good info in it that would be well worth having. I've saved it as a PDF. If you google the keywords you will find it ..... the guys name is Jon Marchant..... that car is exactly what i want. ... he's turbo-ing it now !! ..... or should i say he turbo'd it cos that was 3 years ago.....G.
 
Yeah Gorman I've got Norton - have no idea what happened. Not your fault. I've had these before - a PC Fixer loads itself, then pop ups start driving you crazy, and sometimes the worst case scenario is ancillary functions stop working then eventually the drive locks up.

Yeah mine is a Fusion with about 12K on it. I'm going to look up that build because - like you - I want AWD too! So far no luck with the cam profile data. Crap.
 
Yeah I've got a pretty rippin computer, it does fine with Norton but I've heard the same. Anyway, just an update - I've taken info from here and looked through it. The Mondy build is so inspirational - makes me want to just quit for now, save money, and go all the way with a s/c AWD conversion. In the meantime, I'm waiting on the custom cam profile for my hybrid - the prior owner says he has the specs so we'll see. Nothing yet. Anyway, perhaps, if the dynamic CR is low enough (based on the longer duration I've been quoted), the V9 may work.
 
Considering the size of the v9 vortech head unit and its' limited range , having a higher CR than is normal for FI is well worth investigating in order to get the most from it.

I think forged internals will need to be installed for long term reliability ....G..
 
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