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slow turn = ticking sound

MadDog

Veteran CEG'er
Joined
Jul 27, 2012
Messages
618
Location
Augusta, GA
Recently, I noticed that when I was taking a slow turn, I hear a ticking sound coming from the drivers side wheel well, and I can also feel it through the clutch pedal. This isn't violent or particularly loud, but it is noticeable and to me sounds like something is binding. The front suspension (except for the drivers side LCA) was replaced months ago with no apparent problems, and the ticking sound is very recent (a few weeks). I removed the wheel and inspected the area, but didn't notice anything obvious, such as leaking CV boots, or leaks in the new tire-rod end.

If I had to guess, either the CV joint is starting to go, or something is not right with the steering on the drivers side. If I lift the front end of the car and turn the wheel while not in gear, and the ticking still happens does this imply its the steering linkage ?

thanks,

Mad Dog
 
This is a common symptom of a diff on it's way out, not to scare you... But to be sure it's not check the other bits and cv axles, usually giving them a up and down side to side tug you will probably feel something loosey-goosey if it's making that sound.
 
Not to scare me ? Too late, you scared me. I thought a bad diff would be vibration through the steering column ?

Ok, so I need to check around, and barring that, I will be taking a trip down take-the-freaking-transmission-out lane, which is really bad news. Assuming its the diff, what happens when it finally fails ? No drive power, or will something explode in my car with the force of a thousand suns ?

thanks,

Mad Dog
 
I agree with Beans. If you are getting a click or kick back felt through the steering wheel while turning its a good chance that the diff is on the way out. Check everything else out first.

Worst case if you keep driving and the diff fails it will punch a hole in the mtx case. Could cause other damage. Best to take care of it first.
 
Ug. I was working myself up to do an engine swap and I even emailed Terry Haines about parts for the MTX-75 (pre-97 diff), but havnt gotten a response. However doing all that means I need to get a second car. #($&(*&@)(*#$_)(_*@)@

thanks,

Mad Dog
 
It might just be a CV joint, the two problems are hard to separate. CV joint more likely if the steering has to be close to the end lock to get the problem to show up. Back off just a little and the click goes away, diff won't do that and still tries to make noise even at lesser amount of steering turn.

'Course if you hotdog the car you pretty much know what it is............
 
Sorry. i also had a cv joint make this noise, i hope thats it for your sake...

Have you done any hard launches recently? Wheelspin on hard cuts?
 
CV joint is the culprit - been there, done that - two 'Tours to date. Even a bad inner tie rod end won't show up with the consistent click noise at low speed turns, full lock. Then there is always the "front end up in the air" and the old time check for inner/outer tie rod end looseness - rock front tires, holding at the 9 & 3 o'clock position, rapidly - listen for any play as well as "feel".
 
This is making me paranoid. I am waiting for something to launch off my car…. : ) I am trying to coast through turns and be reeeaaaaly gentle.

No hot-dogging at all. The car is spoiled. To give you an idea of how spoiled, the clutch is still good and its the original part with 246K miles. This is happening before full lock. I am trying to feel out if this happens when the clutch is in neutral.

So I need to lift the front end, and put the car into gear, and see if the clicking is happening or not during gentle or hard turns. I will also check for tie-rod looseness.

I did think of one other possibility - if the ball joint is binding that might cause it. The boot is rather torn up. I can test this by pulling down the LCA from the knuckle and rotating the ball joint.

thanks,

Mad Dog
 
Ball joints do not click repeatedly, they usually will knock or clank once as you do a slow roll turn, say into a driveway or parking space when the load on the stud changes to whack the looseness from side to side as the weight of the car shifts to the outside of the turn-in. Rotating may well tell you nothing, the joint may still seem tight until they are totally destroyed, the ball is spring loaded. Only severe force like with a crowbar and solid prying can show up the loose there. It may even seem tight when rocking the tire/wheel while jacked up in the air.

Be careful running axle with tire hanging in air, proper is to jack up under the LCA also to level axle out some too, if not the severe angle of LCA hanging down fully puts way too much angle on the axle and can shatter CV joints running it like that especially if old and worn. Seen it done before. The inner breaks easy like that, they are actually pretty weak when at a heavy angle.

If sure it's the CV joint then drive it some more, they can click for years and if you do not insist on putting the steering at full limit to make the click then the axle will still run a LONG time, got two cars running now that will click if you do that, they drive fine other than that. Been clicking longer than I care to think about. The click is NOT damage per se, rather the ball slots get worn mostly in the straight ahead part of the slot and then turning, the wheel puts the axle into the old unused still not worn portion, the two slots then do not line up perfectly and the click is the ball jumping slightly when it hits the angle change formed by the end of the wear. A slight edge across the slots forms there, the balls have to snap over them, the clicking. All the diagnosis by mechs saying if it clicks at all you MUST change it is self-serving BS, if you drive sanely you got a lot more to go there especially if the click is only way out toward the steering limit, as it gets worse the click will occur closer to straight ahead steering. That's of course providing the boot still intact and holding grease.

If the noise is when turning CORNERS then may be diff, that is not enough to do CV clicking unless the axle is really bad.
 
I never thought of doing this before, but its ok to lift the car under the ball joint ? That makes sense, but I never tried it before. The noise doesn't happen going in a straight line, only some corners, and once the car has been going for a while seems to subside, although I can only hear it going very slowly.

Between the advice here and FCO, I have some things to try. If it is the diff, then its a ticking grenade ? Could go at any time ?

thanks,

Mad Dog
 
Thanks for the link. I suspect that if its the CV (I hope I hope I hope), it would be more cost/time effective to replace the entire unit.

I had a difficult time trying to get the ticking sound to happen, but I think its happening when I turn slowly when the clutch pedal is fully depressed.

thanks,

Mad Dog
 
Yes you can lift under the ball joint, I've done it for years. Might wanna remove any grease zerk (aftermarket joint) there, it can crush it.

One generally changes the entire axle now, looking for single parts is almost impossible and usually costs you more anyway, the industry moved toward unitized assemblies, you make far more money selling multiple parts than just one or two. Why Ford was forced to do the same, I can't wait to have to buy an entire engine just to get some damn sparkplugs. On the Focus axle mentioned below I got the entire pass side axle, both shafts of it for cheaper than just the intermediate bearing was going for by itself. Kind of silly/stupid. Of course the bearing alone was max quality, the axle included one probably low grade Chinese, we'll see.........

As far as the joints tearing up quick once they click? Absolutely no way unless like pulling a turbo and/or hard MTX use. These are overengineered for the application and I've pulled them apart down to the last ball at high mileage and the balls won't even so much as mark as long as boot stays intact, the wear edge that makes the click is very subtle too and plenty of slot engagement left to carry load. I used a new boot and back in the car axles went. Anyone shearing balls through the cages is flat abusing the car in my view, of course, some of us like to do that. If clicking in straight ahead position or barely turned, yeah, a problem there, but not even nearly if the click is light and only at max steer. The joint in that example doesn't even approach the wear edge 95% of the time car is driven. The outer joint is the one that clicks, it is the turning joint, the inners do not have that load. I only check for torn boot now, I don't even take them apart any longer and out of 6 cars only one axle bought since '90 when I stupidly overextended the inner joint to crack while doing tensioner work once, jacked up the engine too high and too much angle on the driveshaft cracked the trunnion there. Chalk that one up to dumbass. That one was on a Focus last year. I even kept the old axle for spare parts since I have another Focus, I won't hesitate to yank the outer CV and reuse it again if needed.

VWs while highly touted are a joke, I sold more parts for them than any other brand while at the parts store and that put the 'finely engineered German car' statement in the trash as far as my concern, with Beemer right behind them. They are both pretty much mostly crackerbox cars now like these but these axles if VW do that are far superior. I got a '94 Tempo with clicking axles for years like I said. Driven since '95. Had an '88 Tempo until last month, the same, both cars over 200K and both with clicking that began around 125K. ONLY when turned to hard steer limit. I'm still driving the wheels off of them with original axles. My Contour does it and for years, my Focus now only on one side since I changed the one axle mentioned. The cars are rock solid dependable. You don't even know the click is there unless you look for it, it does not show whatsoever in normal driving, you have to force it to do it. Like the below.................

Find a church parking lot or other empty parking lot at night and then go into the middle and then take the wheel and lock it all the way one way and slowly keep turning in a circle, then max steering the other way to do the same. You'll hear it if there. Clicking from CV does not come and go, you should be able to call it up instantly doing that, if not it may be the diff again.

Yet the link website link says the axles are bad, hilarious. They were bad then 20 years and 100+K miles ago. Something else........if you can't tell the difference in light clicking and clicking loud enough to possibly fail in the next minute, well, my view is that you need to walk home to teach yourself a lesson. The two noises are nowhere near the same.

Like said before, if showing at normal moderate turns or straight ahead you have an issue and need one then, just saying all that fear stuff out there is pure crap though. CV axle changes are easy high profit work, naturally the mechs will steer toward getting as much of that as they can, even to out and out lying to get the work. What the industry does best..........look at the above link and tell me who tells you if they click AT ALL they're bad-replace them! I rest my case. They can click at the steering extreme well under 100K and still last ten more years, you either get that, or you don't.

And reversing a CV joint to make it turn in opposite direction???, FANTASTIC..........ALLY STUPID, we don't want ONE wear spot, now we are going to create TWO (one on each side of the slot) to interfere with each other now, you have no idea how retarded I think that is. All from the guys who want you to think they are smart and buy parts from them..............flipping CVs will guaranteed have the two wear edges fighting with each other for sure. The ball is forced to slide to accommodate angle change by design there, two different loosenesses in there will have that ball sticking on wonky edges all over the place to not slide smoothly as designed. Even half wear doubled by two by flipping the joint is worse than single sided at twice the wear amount, I'd bet money on that.

Caveat Emptor.................my cars are ATX and easier on CV joints, MTX are a little harder and a LOT harder on them if you hotdog the car. Your stuff and do as you will..........
 
MadDog, just got to thinking.....................jack car up on one side with the LCA also jacked separately to make the axle close to level as it comes out of trans, NOT level to the ground itself. Trans in neutral, wheels pointed straight ahead. Take that wheel and then spin it, you are then spinning the diff through the spider gears and listen for any errant noise or roughness by feel too. Then do the other side same thing. With LCA jacked you are minimizing the click from CVs, they are not loaded to make noise then but by handturning wheel you may be able to find issue with the diff itself. Should turn smoothly, any grinding or rough is not good.

Can't pull trans magnet to check for metal trash on it, it appears to trap inside the case halves.
 
Good advice for checking the diff w/o the CV joint clicking playing "first fiddler"!! Comments regarding the "highly touted VW are a joke" are not necessary in this forum - keep it professional please. I know Tom Peters (MadDog) well enough to know that he is thankful for any point of reference/tips he can get his hands on. The link to the VW CV Joint has good info in regards to general info and fault diagnose.
 
I appreciate all the advice everyone has given me. Unfortunately, I have to wait until I fix the garage door before I can get the jack and stands out. I am definitely sure the problem happens with the clutch pedal depressed or not. I have been unable to feel the tapping through the clutch pedal lately, and that may or may not be related to me loosening the top strut nut. I did drive the car (unfortunately, on wet pavement, its been raining 2 days) with tight turns in both directions, and the sound is not happening at full lock. Still, I have more testing to do once I can get back into the garage.

thanks,

Mad Dog
 
I'm being a dumb-ss, a better way, assuming no limited slip diff there. Wheels straight ahead again. Put car in gear, BOTH wheels in air and BOTH axles neutralized level then have a friend hold slight to moderate resistance to one side wheel while you turn the other. Not even turning diff outside case and main gear at all there at that time and all feel is directly through the diff side gears only, the parts that generally tear up. Holding one wheel slightly while turning the other loads the side gears to then truly show any torn up condition there. Go in both directions in at least a couple full rotations. Any crunching or other would be bad, should turn smoothly. By friend then holding his wheel FIRM and solid you can rock the other wheel back and forth limit to limit to tell total wear as well in the gears. Get some idea of the OD edge of tire, mark how far it rotates from stop to stop. 2-3 inches and under the norm there if parts are good it will go out to like up to 6 or more if dead parts.
 
Raining again…. go figure. All I had time to do was lift the front end. I wanted to lift under the ball joint, but my jack can't get there with the wheels on and I suspect I don't want to lift on the arms themselves. What I did find that with both front wheels in the air and the trans in N, both wheels (pointed straight) spun freely, with no bad noises at all. I did try rocking the wheels at 3 and 9, and there is very little play. I chocked the rear wheels and put the car in 1 and rocked the steering lock to lock….. no bad noises at all.

amc49, I don't have a LSD, so I like your idea, I just need a better day to try it.

thanks

Mad Dog
 
i have a pre-98 dif if interested. but a failing dif would more be a cluncking, uneven clunking. cv join is more of a higher pitched clicking, at a constant velocity. thats why they are called constant velocity joints
 
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