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Someone agrees with me DemonSVT

B

BurritaSVT

Veteran CEG'er
Joined
Feb 28, 2001
Messages
756
Location
houma, LA 70360
OK I have been doing some serious thinking about the money and the best compromise here.

Sorry I had to start a new post here but I want to really talk about one subject here. And this will be picking with Tom some because I am disagreeing with the first thing he ever told me which is the first........

Well I have a 2.5 liter crank that is in great shape from my last forged motor and it was balanced for pauter rods and 9:1 diamond pistons that were bored .20 over and they were flat tops too.

Now the new motor has the exact same rods but the pistons is slightly larger diameter but it is dished taking away some extra weight too but added back withg the larger diameter pistons.

But Tom told me to stay 3 liter but I would have to buy another 3 liter motor ship it or find a used crank ship it and still have to pay 200 to rebalance it too. So this could cost 600 or more or I can just save 400.00or more by just taking my 2.5 liter to add just some offset weight rebalancing it for the few grams more.

So we know the 2.5 liter crank can hold more than I plan on ever giving it. The 3 liter crank same strength but larger lobes to offset it weight by factory. Which if someone would put it side by side I wondering if the larger lobe would hurt by having more surface area which creates more friction when it moves through the oil.

And if I was to go like forged steel pistons to go over even further would a 2 .5 liter motor change cranks to a 3 liter crank to handle more weight ....nah he would just balance the 2.5 liter crank since the differences I can only see is what the factory does adding larger lobes for more counterweights. Which is what a good reputable motor shop can do by just adding weight by welding in the holes drilled on the end of the crank.

I went outside to see what they did to my 2.5 liter crank to make it balanced and they filled 2 hole of the three on the lobe to make it right. And that littel weight was enough to offset forged I beams rods and heavier psitons then that means the few grams difference now should be a walk in the park for the guy since he still has anouther hole to add weight plus by filling the hole eliminates drag since it makes a smoother edge too for oil friction.

I want someone like Tom or fastcougar etc. to give me a detail answer on why I should not go this direction and go buy another 3 liter crank instead. Now remember all my block and parts are still good I only lost a Pauter Rod and a crank here.

Hope I didn't bore anyone here but I just hoping that my knowledge is right on what I think is better.
 
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I don't know what to tell you other than I just KNOW you will have less headaches in the long run getting yourself another stock 3L crank. Sure I imagine you could balance a crank to fit your 2.5L pistons. I just don't know if it is wise.

You know how I know this? Murphys Law. Even a perfected process like the Ford forging and assembly line doesn't make perfect cranks everytime. They inspect and throw out the bad ones. Based just on this law, think about the number of variables you are introducing here.

I'd rather get a crank out of a running motor and KNOW that the thing has already passed the test rather than spend the same or even a bit less money on a process with a whole bunch of variables just to get the same result.
I hate to be an "I told you so"(too often anyway) on here but just like when the electric water pump deal was all the rage and people were getting them for 3Ls. I elected to put 3L valves in my 2.5L head p&p to match and keep as much stock hardware as possible including the water pump for reliability. Many did not.
Even sport compact car editors agree indirectly. They give extra points in their contests to the engineering side of the modified cars for "changing only what needs to be changed".

This is why I ran the stock 3L block up further and further in little steps to explore the limits. I didn't want to spend money if I didn't need to. I didn't want to have the car down forever building mods for it if I didn't need to. I was happy to be rolling around with my hardware turbo'd and running well for years while people struggled to fix the 'fixes' for things that didn't need fixing.

So my gut instinct is telling me this stuff based on experience. You should do what your instincts tell you to do. You already know I do wish you the best of luck.

Fix the 3L crank you have if possible. If you just roll around New Orleans there has to be a junkyard in that place with a high mileage 3L engine for low to no dollars. THe crank isn't gonna be worn out even if everything else is.
I just KNOW someone has a friggin 3L with a bad block but a decent crank laying around out there. Someone has to.
 
Use the 2.5. A good machine shop will tell you if its bad to begin with, It most be good as you used it in your 2.5 with no problems. In fact it maybe a better crank the the 3.0 as 2.5 svt cranks were hand selected. Thats the best cranks picked out of the good pile of cranks that were already inspected to begin with. Does that make sense? Use the 2.5, thats my opinion. Heck bring both cranks to the shop, they will tell you whats good. Your not brining them something they haven't seen before.
 
Here is a good datasheet from Castrol Syntec. The site has all their oils but I picked this synthetic blend because it shows better range of numbers than their straight GTX.
http://www.castrol.com/liveassets/b...local_assets/downloads/p,q/pds_syntec_usa.pdf

There are equally good ones available from other companies. Regular Mobil and Mobil 1 oils are very good too of course.


Notice the 5w40, 5w50 and the 10w40.

The 5w50 looks to provide good all around performance protection with a 17.4 cSt at 100*C Which might provide optimum protection without much of a cold start penalty.

Might look at this later...
 
I agree with you Tom if the you were using stock internals about staying 3 liter crank versus adding counterweight for a 2.5 liter crank. But either way the crank has to be altered so even a stock 3 liter crank can be messed up if the guy doesn't have the knowledge or equipment to balance it pefect. But guessing this guy build V8 that turn up 8000 rpms with more power and has more business than he can handle I am betting he does a great job on balancing.

So yes when you build a forged motor like me you have alot of variables that can make the motor wear or break more often than a stock but I really doubt the stock will be able to handle what I am shooting for. So really Tom you are saying you would trust anyone but factory but you must realize that people exceed the factory tolerances by making more power turning up the revs etc.

So no matter if the guy has to add 20 grams of weight versus 10 grams of weight per lobe to balance the end results is what makes the difference. So I have to put my faith in the builder. And if the motor was unbalanced I would have a huge vibration the more rpms I go and more likely would have spun a main or wore out one very quickly. I can say the two motor he did for me you could almost balance a penny on it side when it idled and running solid motor mounts I am sure the vibration would have been terrible up top.

Oh people keep saying rebuild the 3 liter crank but realize this the Rod is welded to the crank so the crank would need to be turned down big time plus I saw a scar on my other bearing where it worn through the first layer so that journal will be needing turning too. They charge like 200+ to turn the journal plus the makes the balance off by do so and the crank will be weaker there too.

But I will bring him the crank off the 3 liter to make sure the there are no big difference between the two beside weights too.

From now on I will take down my bearings every year to inspect the wear or any damage. The removal only took me 2 hrs because all you need to do it remove the mounts in the front and side and connect up my engine lift so that the oil pan can clear the frame and valaa it;s done ,,, to easy to not check plus The bearing cost less then a oil change especailly since I have pauter rods with chrome moly bolts that are reusable too. So $40.00 and I will change them if they have any signs of wear and change oils again to do some research on what oil works best for my application I will go thick as I can at first for sure.

Me and Mark were talking and maybe me putting fully sythetic in after 1500 miles might have not let the bearing break in properly too. We will change the next time to change over at 7K instead.
 
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I fully realize that we are pushing the limits of hardware. I realize that more than most since no one else wanted to do it so please remember that. I have nothing to gain by telling you to get a known good crank. :shrug:

I got no problems building forged aftermarket stuff and I have even done it on Ford V8s in the past. I do trust certain shops to do certain work. I've just been in the business a long time working in it myself for many years and still dabbling in it. I KNOW how many times a job can go sour due to poor workmanship. I'd just hate to see you pulling it a 4th time due to stupid crap.

You have a good point that the last two times you did the engines they must have balanced out fine, I keep forgetting that. That means your shop is probably one of the good ones.
Therefore, it seems like you have it all figured out already so just go and do it. As far as the debate here, you did make it public and ask opinions. Opinions are like a*holes, everybody has one.
 
Ahh you know it all in the fun Tom I love a little educated debate especailly with a man of your expertise. But yes you are right I wanted to do this from the start but I always liked a little opinions from the CEGS too. Never know it may help someone else down the road if they run into these problems but hopefully for their sake they will learn from mine. Thanks Tom now you will here me posting new pics of the motor coming back together so we can get it back on the dyno for new results in the 500whp range.
 
If it were my engine, I would just reuse the 2.5L crank that you have already had rebalanced for 3.0L duty. The difference in balance weight should be minimal and the shop should be able to do a balance correction without too much work.

However, if I could get a real 3.0L crank in good condition for like $50, I would use it since the end product would not have as much drilling all over it.
 
yes you are right if I could find one but noone will donate one and the shipping alone is 80 bucks to get it here. And I did a search on the car-parts and nothing around here they just have full engines which if I had the time I would break it down and sell the heads converted to someone who wanted ready to go heads but I think I will not recoup my cost back since shipping for the motors are over 100 bucks too.
 
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Well, I confess I've learned a few things about this stuff over the last few days. It did bring up good points and to know that using the 2.5L crank will work with the 3L is good stuff.
I'm not "put out" at all, you should know me by now. :cool:
I'm just putting it in perspective that if you know what you want to do then just go for it and tell us later.

You have to forgive me because I don't have the same knowledge as you about the parts that are sitting in your front yard.....the 2.5L crank, your 3L, etc. Since I can't see them my recommendations were from a play-it-safe attitude because I feel you have spent a lot of time and money on this and you deserve to have it work right and stay working right. That's why I agreed to tune your car too.

I don't agree to tune everyone's car for various reasons. Some people want a basic tune which can be gotten anywhere but cases like yours where You the customer are suffering because you aren't getting what you need, then that is where I will help out and apply all my efforts towardsfixing the issue.
So that is my attitude towards it; I want to minimize effort/cost and just help you out.
 
and you know how much I appreciated your advice and help with the great tune I received from you. yeah I deserve a break from the car gods :) but I guess that is why I am so good at building them and breaking them....lol . Well i have not done a worksmanship error yet it has been tuning issues for my last three engines and this fourth engine was lack of knowledge on oil weights for various applications.

I will check the pistons ring land and edges when I remove them completly to verify that were are not pitting or detonating any with the tune highly doubt it though. I will do leak down test on the cylinder since they should be well seated on the rings.

Just consider this a little bump in the road for me and consider the 500whp barrier broken even if I have to do some more changes.
 
Not to break up this discussion, as I don't have either a turbo or a 3L yet, but I just love hearing 2 intelligent people debating like intelligent people. Info/Discussions like this are why I love this site so much. Sorry to interrupt, but one tends to get tired of "Yo man, that sux. My way owns!!!! " Just had to give my .02.
 
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