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3L Operating Temp.

I'm going to end up doing that. I havn't had a chance yet to do it since I've been extremely tied up at work. I'll give them a call today and see if they have any ideas and see what they can do for me.
 
I'm almost tempted to remove the belt on the water pump and see at what temp on the auto meter gauge it reads when the stock gauge is in the red.

Again, I'm still surprised that no one knows what that temp is on the stock gauge. That is the actual temp or range the red area of the gauge represents. Seems like a deep, dark secret.
 
BrApple said:
max temp should be where the fans kick on and the coolant temp comes back down to the thermostat temp ... so stock the fans should kick on when the coolant temp hits 212F and bring it back to 190F ...I really shouldn't get much higher ... I would say over 225 is pretty high ...
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That would be cool if it worked that way in hot areas (like Phoenix). With the a/c on (in mid-summer), I used to hit around 235-240. Now I'm around 215-220. Reduction of temp is from replacing the SVT water-oil cooler with an air-oil cooler, and running waterwetter.
 
morbid said:
That would be cool if it worked that way in hot areas (like Phoenix). With the a/c on (in mid-summer), I used to hit around 235-240. Now I'm around 215-220. Reduction of temp is from replacing the SVT water-oil cooler with an air-oil cooler, and running waterwetter.
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I've used waterwetter and it really does seem to help :cool:
 
Noticed on the ODB-2 software when connected and data loggin, it has the red zone for the ECT set at 260F. I had the temps the other day up to 249F and the stock gage was well within the the normal. Does the 260F read about right?
 
Surprised Demon has not weighed in on this. 160 degree T-stat FTW! I'm using one with 50/50 Dexcool/distilled water, fans programmed on @ 195 degrees.

Demon says....


Originally posted by mcon99: I think stock the fans don't kick in until 180 or so?



Oh it is MUCH, MUCH worse then that!!!

Primary fan comes on at 216 and the secondary at 224. Stupid!!!

BTW - the PCM starts pulling timing at 200 degrees. 20% by 210, 40% by 230

Programmed in heat soak!!! Absolutely asinine Ford!!!


My operating temps hover in mid to upper 160's when moving. The engine just loves it. My engine gets no higher than the low 190's in stop and go traffic. (it's been 90's with 90% humidity here too so far)

Even at that the primary fan hardly ever runs (never if the car is moving) and the secondary has never kicked on to my knowledge.

Yes I have the fans kick on early (185 for primary/195 for secondary) and for those that asked No you can not just build a simple relay circuit for them. The stock harness and setup will not allow for it.

The SVT radiator combined with the 60/40 water/dex-cool mix and some water wetter works just amazing for heat control!

Read thread here....

http://www.contour.org/ubbthreads/s...umber=334339&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1
 
Icefury said:
Surprised Demon has not weighed in on this. 160 degree T-stat FTW! I'm using one with 50/50 Dexcool/distilled water, fans programmed on @ 195 degrees.

Demon says....


Originally posted by mcon99: "I think stock the fans don't kick in until 180 or so?"


Oh it is MUCH, MUCH worse then that!!!

Primary fan comes on at 216 and the secondary at 224. Stupid!!!

BTW - the PCM starts pulling timing at 200 degrees. 20% by 210, 40% by 230

Programmed in heat soak!!! Absolutely asinine Ford!!!

... The SVT radiator combined with the 60/40 water/dex-cool mix and some water wetter works just amazing for heat control!
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

I've been using 60/40 water/Dex-Cool & Water Wetter with a 160 degree T-stat for most of my Contour/Mystique V-6 ownership - over 4 years now. Couldn't be happier.

That stat about heat soak & timing being pulled before the fans kick on just blows my mind...
 
Where are you guys getting the 160 degree t-stats? It's kind of a weird design to my eyes.

Electric temp senders/gauges are notoriously poor. If you mount the sender on the block, the vibrations from the motor can kill them prematurely. Mount it remote OR use a mechanical gauge.

Also, as pointed out oil cooling has an effect on engine temps too.
 
Bradness said:
Where are you guys getting the 160 degree t-stats?
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Using Mustang unit from Stant. Mine required a tiiiiiiiny amount of trimming to fit in the housing - no biggie. The 160 I got dropped into the Zetec T-stat housing for some reason - no modification needed at all.

From the 3L part number FAQ:

Stant Part# 13396 – 160 Degree T-Stat
 
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Bradness said:
Electric temp senders/gauges are notoriously poor. If you mount the sender on the block, the vibrations from the motor can kill them prematurely. Mount it remote OR use a mechanical gauge.

Also, as pointed out oil cooling has an effect on engine temps too.
Click to expand...

My after market temp gage seems to track very closely to the EEC's probe (going on 3 years since initial install). They may not be spot on but there wasn't a 20 degree difference.

Still haven't seen anything definitive on max operating temps for the 3L duratec. I guess it's a mystery with the answer buried deep inside the walls of Ford.

Also, my oil temps track fairly close. Maybe a 5-8 degree difference. Of course it takes longer to warm or cool down the oil but once the temp stabilizes, they're close. And I have a remote mounted filter.
 
The Stant #13396 fit my housing with no modifications needed. Only go with Stant... I tried a "high-flow" model from Milodon.. but it's only a one part and won't work right.
 
It seems nmany of you guys seem to get this stuff when we talk about the temps of the radiator as related to ambient temps, yet later turn right around and start breaking all this stuff in the quest for a few degrees of timing. If you drop your thermostat temp you reduce the reduce the overall operating temp, decreasing the temperature difference in the radiator which slows down the heat transfer capability of the system. The fan then runs more often sucking down power and indirectly more fuel, more wear and tear on the fan. None of this is even relevant when the temps get hot anyway as the engine will run hotter and the fans will run all the time. But in cooler temps it is possible to reduce the engine temps a little and maybe gain a few degrees of timing. However, you can just add that timing in with a tune and keep the car operating where it is supposed to be anyway.
here is some supporting information though I'm not sure it changes the bottom line anyway.
Simplified but here is Newtonian cooling:
Q=h*A(To-Ta) where h= heat transfer coefficient, A is the surface area, To is temperature of the object and Ta is the temperature of the ambient. oh, and Q is total heat transfered in watts.

So if you look at it, the bigger the temp difference between To and Ta, the greater the amount of heat transferred through the object in the same amount of time. This makes the cooling system more efficient...back to that fans run less often and load the engine down less, wear out components slower.

Also related to this is the heat capacity of water, with an elevated boiling point of about 250-260* with an 15-16lb pressure cap.
The radiator cap pressure prevents the water from changing state and boiling off, allowing it to be useful in a temperature range well above boiling and in fact the heat capacity increases linearly with respect to temperature increase.
WHY:
So hotter water means it holds more heat than cooler water. Hotter water in the radiator transfers heat faster to the ambient air. Efficiency is higher.

Just so you all know why I'm against the whole thing.
 
warmonger said:
Simplified but here is Newtonian cooling:
Q=h*A(To-Ta) where h= heat transfer coefficient, A is the surface area, To is temperature of the object and Ta is the temperature of the ambient. oh, and Q is total heat transfered in watts.

So if you look at it, the bigger the temp difference between To and Ta, the greater the amount of heat transferred through the object in the same amount of time. This makes the cooling system more efficient...back to that fans run less often and load the engine down less, wear out components slower.
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You're assuming that there is little/no ambient airflow over the radiator to bleed off heat below the temp where the fans kick on. I commute 38 miles every day, so I get plenty of airflow & rarely hear my fans kick on excpet on the hottest of days - and/or when I run the A/C. In typical stop & go traffic or idling in your workshop you may have an arguement, but on the highway the 160 T-stat rulez.

Even in 70 degree Florida winter weather in city driving from stoplight to stoplight, my engine stays nice & cool & I can actually see the temp needle drop as my car approaches speed limit. Again, fans rarely kick on. The first winter I had the combo in I was actually concerned that my fans or temp switches were not working. I wasn't used to seeing the needle move that much. I even checked the fuse layout in the manual to see if there was a blown fuse for the fan relays. While I was sitting there in the Wal-Mart parking lot searching the manual, the fan turned on. :blackeye:
 
This is a really interesting thread and I've often wondered the same question.
My 3L's temp gauge almost always hangs around the 'N' or the 'O', even in hot weather
 
TourDeForce said:
You're assuming that there is little/no ambient airflow over the radiator to bleed off heat below the temp where the fans kick on. I commute 38 miles every day, so I get plenty of airflow & rarely hear my fans kick on excpet on the hottest of days - and/or when I run the A/C. In typical stop & go traffic or idling in your workshop you may have an arguement, but on the highway the 160 T-stat rulez.
....
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I'm actually assuming that there is equal airflow in both cases. The A in the equation has to be equal for the argument to have any weight. That means that radiator size, airflow, etc. all have to be equal for A not to change and then you can look solely at the benefits of a greater temperature differential.
 
So if you look at it, the bigger the temp difference between To and Ta, the greater the amount of heat transferred through the object in the same amount of time. This makes the cooling system more efficient...back to that fans run less often and load the engine down less, wear out components slower.
Click to expand...
Terminology nitpick. Yes, I've had heat transfer and thermo classes. Temperature difference is the driver in the equations, the greater the temp differential, the greater the heat transfer. That will not change the efficiency of the system. The radiator isn't magically more efficient because it's starting at 180 versus starting at 160.

And now a question - say I replace my thermostat with a 160 degree one, versus the standard. If I don't change or tune the ECM code to turn the fans on earlier, then what does that hurt or help?

The thermostat opens earlier, and I get more passive radiator cooling because I start flowing coolant earlier? Will that have any positive effect on horsepower / timing / whatever?
 
Linkman said:
Terminology nitpick. Yes, I've had heat transfer and thermo classes. Temperature difference is the driver in the equations, the greater the temp differential, the greater the heat transfer. That will not change the efficiency of the system. The radiator isn't magically more efficient because it's starting at 180 versus starting at 160.

And now a question - say I replace my thermostat with a 160 degree one, versus the standard. If I don't change or tune the ECM code to turn the fans on earlier, then what does that hurt or help?

The thermostat opens earlier, and I get more passive radiator cooling because I start flowing coolant earlier? Will that have any positive effect on horsepower / timing / whatever?
Click to expand...

Without an ECU modification to adjust the On/Off for the radiator fans, the T-stat alone is pretty pointless, you need both to make it work. The whole point of doing the mod is to prevent the engine from pulling timing, robbing you of HP.
 
Linkman said:
And now a question - say I replace my thermostat with a 160 degree one, versus the standard. If I don't change or tune the ECM code to turn the fans on earlier, then what does that hurt or help?

The thermostat opens earlier, and I get more passive radiator cooling because I start flowing coolant earlier? Will that have any positive effect on horsepower / timing / whatever?
Click to expand...

I would say yes in very limited circumstances. If you actually play with all variables in your tune then yes you could pick up a few more degrees of timing without sacrificing the computers protection to pull timing in case you start to get really hot. So yes for a detailed tune you can get something out of it but it's just easier and as effective to just add a few degrees of timing.

With that said, I fall back on what I said earlier and point out that the 10-20* of coolant temp diff honestly don't make that much of a difference in the timing the engine can tolerate. I say this because people always talk about spark timing like it is the holy grail and more is always better. Well it isn't. Spark timing has a definite point where it is optimum based mostly on air density and fuel quality. Temperature plays a role in predetonation mainly in that if you do ignite the mixture too early then you risk destroying your engine so that risk is less when the timing is less based on the fact that if you light it off later then peak pressures will be generated after the piston goes through TDC and not before. If you run right on the ragged edge of optimum timing then the one time you do get preignition and full cylinder pressure is likely to be when the piston is coming up and not right at the top.
 
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