boost leak or turbo lag?

[crewchiefpro]

Mixtape,

If you want to keep it alive then I would not go over 6 lbs. of boost. Up until this engine I was on the "engine a year" plan on my Turbo Contour. 8 lbs of boost has now ended 6 engine's lives in a horrific way.

Want it right? Get forged rods and pistons and get it over with. Had I done this before I would have been money ahead. These are not easy to work on with a turbo, especially in cold weather. On the bright side, my son and I have become quite proficient replacing engines....

Get at least the 255 fuel pump, not that expensive and it will support the fuel requirements properly.

 

[BAD SVT]

Build Update:

Due to the problems listed in the above posts, I decided to change my setup a bit. The harsh kink near the TB, and the boost issue in 1st gear, made me want to go back to the drawing board. Plus bhiggs89 had a good suspicion that the secondaries were restricting the turbo's ability to build boost before 3750RPM. So the perfect remedy to all three problems was simple, remove the engine, locate any leaks, and of course, 3L :shocked:.

The engine bay is cramped, so checking for leaks will most likely result in removing a lot of the kit anyway. So it makes sense to pull the engine. Plus running a full 3L would remove secondaries, and thus, would eliminate the limited air flow in the low RPM range (not to mention the awesome increase in low end pre-boost torque ).

I'm hoping to start the project within the next few months. I'm currently working out the shipping details for a 2005 Sable engine with around 20k miles on it. As usual, Greg will be helping me out at his awesome AirCougar shop. I have a few questions though that I'll add to the end of this post.

Here is the last video I took of the car in its current condition (2.5L with boost issue):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37mkzQvzIE4

Questions:

1. My car is an e0, 1998 CSVT, so I believe I'm running a return style fuel system. What will I have to do in order to use a 2005 Sable 3L in an e0 CSVT? I think I remember reading about having to go returnless in order to use the full 3L. Is it not possible to use the return style system with the Sable engine? I recall something about brazing lines or a possible need for an adapter. So if I must go return style, does that mean I'll need a fuel pressure regulator? I believe the e1 ECU does all the fuel regulations in the newer CSVTs, but I'm running the original e0 ECU.

Striker2, you wrote in an old thread that: Return style pumps are designed to run at full voltage 100% of the time, while returnless pumps are designed to handle a modulated voltage to maintain the proper pressure. The returnless system pump is a variable speed pump. The PCM watches fuel pressure and adjust pump speed as necessary.

2. I've read that the stock fuel pump can support up to ~300hp, but a turbo 3L will most likely be pushing the stock pump's limits. Can I get away with using the stock pump? If not, Walbro sells two pumps that are rated 255LPH. The GSS317 and the GSS340. The first one I believe is "normal" and the second one is a "high pressure "pump. Both seem to be rated at 255lph. What is the difference? Which would be ideal for my application?

3. With my stock engine, I kept the boost set to around 7 or 8 PSI. Should I keep that number consistent on a full 3L setup? Can the 3L handle more/less boost? I can't really see myself needing more than 9 or 10 PSI. Traction is a major issue with our platform. FWIW, I'll be running a full 3L with '05 3L cams and intake manifold. I know that the size off a turbo plays a big roll in power/PSI, so I'll list my turbo specs below. What are your opinions based on the turbo size?

Master Power turbo (T3 turbine)
.50 compressor A/R (48 trim)
.63 turbine A/R (83 trim)

4. Is anyone familiar with Sniper Tuning or Delta Force Tuning? This is the software that Greg uses at his shop. Is there an easy way to tune out the secondaries from the ECU?

As always, thanks a lot everyone. I'm glad to be back at it.

1) I also remember sumthn about brazing fuel lines. OOORRR you can just get this: http://nautilusperformance.com/perf...store#!/~/product/category=2181191&id=9153745

2) As brought out by crewchief, go with the 255l/h pump. I'm not sure there's much of a difference between the high pressure pump & regular. I've got the h.p pump in my 3L turbo, and provides enough fuel as needed by the engine. Never anywhere lean...

3) If i recall accurately, the kit that comes with npg uses a .57 trim compressor and .63 turbine (T3/T4 hybrid). If you run a .50, u'll spool quicker obviously. I'm not exactly sure you want that in a FWD car with about 300hp. Especially considering with a full 3l, u'll have pretty good amt of torque down low, unlike those of us running split ports.
In addition, as brought out by crewchief, you do not wanna go over 6lbs of boost on stock internals. I'm in the same boat with don(crewchief). The difference is i went through an avg of an engine every couple years or so. Truth is even at 6lbs, it won't last forever. 3yrs at the most if driven hard once in a while. And if you DD it, and like to get one it all the time, then you're looking at about a couple of years. Just like Don. i'm in the middle of installing forged pistons and rods. Learn from members like myself, don & others who have taken the hit, numerous times. If you want cheap fun for a brief period, and have the energy, skill, and money for endless 3l swaps, then go ahead. I would suggest going the forged route once & for all, and have a dependable engine.

4) I've no idea who those tuners are. But i imagine secondaries can be tuned out. Joey @ npg tuned mine out a few years back, & i've never had an issue.

Mixtape,

If you want to keep it alive then I would not go over 6 lbs. of boost. Up until this engine I was on the "engine a year" plan on my Turbo Contour. 8 lbs of boost has now ended 6 engine's lives in a horrific way.

Want it right? Get forged rods and pistons and get it over with. Had I done this before I would have been money ahead. These are not easy to work on with a turbo, especially in cold weather. On the bright side, my son and I have become quite proficient replacing engines...

:laugh: Just found it funny that we are in the exact place in our thoughts, feelings, & lives regarding our car. Difference is i got at least 2yrs minimum out of mine. And i too have become quite proficient at putting in 3Ls. Every single one was a success. Well, until they blew up anyway...

 

[mixtape]

Thank you guys for the reply. I'm actually surprised to hear that. I was under the impression that 3L stock internals could handle boost a bit better than that. Especially based on what I've been reading in the old threads: (Ray's post in particular)
http://www.contour.org/ceg-vb/showthread.php?14519-3L-Safe-Boost-levels...

That being said, I would think that 10psi would be the "median" level for a fair mix between longevity and "fun". 7.5 being much "safer" and 13-14 being much more "dangerous". Now is it really that dangerous? I ran 14-14.5 psi for quite a while and it didn't explode. It didn't burn up, and it didn't fail.l

All of this being brought up, I'd run 10psi any day, and 14 psi about half of that time! lol

I have a Voodoo MBC, so I can always start low, with the option to chance things later on. That's probably the safest way to start. If 6PSI just roasts the tires, then there isn't much of a need to go any higher.

Also the shop that was selling the low mileage 3L ended up trying to charge me all these last minute fees. $50 for a "notification fee" for them to call me before delivery. So I'll probably keep my eyes out for another '04/'05 3L.

1) I also remember sumthn about brazing fuel lines. OOORRR you can just get this: http://nautilusperformance.com/performance-automotive-parts-store#!/~/product/category=2181191&id=9153745

Unfortunately the link doesn't work. I know NPG has been down for the last few weeks (or at least during the times that I've tried).

Yes, the website is just down.

I'm not sure there's much of a difference between the high pressure pump & regular.

It looks like the regular 255L/Hr is good for ~510hp, and the high pressure one is about ~610Hp (according to a thread by ButtonPuncher on CEG). So the normal GSS317 pump is way more than I need anyway. No need for the GSS340.

Also, if a 3L is returnless, and the e0 is return style, does that mean that I'll need a fuel pressure regulator if I add the 255 fuel pump? I believe that the e1 ECU does all the fuel regulations in the newer CSVTs, but I'm running the original e0 ECU. Correct me if I'm wrong, but a returnless ECU adjusts the speed of the fuel pump depending on driving conditions, but a return style ECU runs the fuel pump at a constant speed, and just returns the unused fuel. So what happens if I add the 255 pump to the e0? If it runs at full speed, with no ECU regulation, it could cause an issue, right?

Thanks again for the posts, and I'll keep you guys updated .

 

[striker2]

some stock FPRs get overrun with the addition of a higher flow fuel pump. I have not seen this on the Contour FPRs but its easy to watch for. at idle you can check the fuel pressure and if its higher than stock its being overrun and should be upgraded with an adjustable FPR.

 

[BAD SVT]

Try again. It worked for me then, and it works for me now.

 

[mixtape]

Try again. It worked for me then, and it works for me now.

Nice, looks like the site is back up . Thank you. Though I think you may have sent the wrong link. The one you sent above is for "3.0 liter Returnless Fuel Rail Mod for Returnless Fuel System." Though I found another adapter that's "3.0 liter Returnless Fuel Rail Mod for Return Fuel System." I think the second one will fit the bill.

some stock FPRs get overrun with the addition of a higher flow fuel pump. I have not seen this on the Contour FPRs but its easy to watch for. at idle you can check the fuel pressure and if its higher than stock its being overrun and should be upgraded with an adjustable FPR.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but on returnless cars, the FPR is in the tank itself (on the fuel pump), but with a return-style car, it is on the fuel rail under the hood?

If the stock return-style regulator works well with a Walbro pump, that's very good to know. Will I need any other modifications to the fuel system in order to use a full 3L with a return style car? I'm planning to run the 3L's 24lb injectors, which should be good for the ~300hp range. I have 42lb injectors, but they were causing some trouble with tuning. I don't recall exactly what Greg said, but I remember bhiggs89 had similar problems tuning big injectors as well.

I ran 24lb/hr injectors when it was a turbo 2.5 and a turbo 3L without any issue. Although I kept the boost down a little on the 3L (5psi).

I will add that 24lb/hr is not ideal for a turbo 3L, I had 39lb/hr Cobra injectors that I was having issues with in trying to tune the car.

 

[BAD SVT]

Correct on the return and returnless fuel pump locations. Other than picking up from npg the fuel rail adapter piece and braided line which is attached to our stock fpr, there's no other fuel mod needed. I'm running the same setup. The other piece u found is what you want as u brought out already.

 

[striker2]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but on returnless cars, the FPR is in the tank itself (on the fuel pump), but with a return-style car, it is on the fuel rail under the hood?

returnless cars dont have an FPR at all. they have a pressure sensor mounted on the fuel rail and a fuel pressure control module. the module reads the pressure (along with other inputs) and adjusts the voltage to the pump to maintain the correct pressure.

If the stock return-style regulator works well with a Walbro pump, that's very good to know. Will I need any other modifications to the fuel system in order to use a full 3L with a return style car? I'm planning to run the 3L's 24lb injectors, which should be good for the ~300hp range. I have 42lb injectors, but they were causing some trouble with tuning. I don't recall exactly what Greg said, but I remember bhiggs89 had similar problems tuning big injectors as well.

personally I would recommend at least 32lb injectors for 300HP on a V6. my VR4 came with 360cc injectors (~34lb) and at the stock 320BHP levels they dont have much head room. I have 450cc injectors now (~42lb) and they are almost maxed out in the high 300s WHP.

 

[BAD SVT]

returnless cars dont have an FPR at all. they have a pressure sensor mounted on the fuel rail and a fuel pressure control module. the module reads the pressure (along with other inputs) and adjusts the voltage to the pump to maintain the correct pressure.


personally I would recommend at least 32lb injectors for 300HP on a V6. my VR4 came with 360cc injectors (~34lb) and at the stock 320BHP levels they dont have much head room. I have 450cc injectors now (~42lb) and they are almost maxed out in the high 300s WHP.

Isn't that what a fpr is? I however was under the impression it was located somewhere in the tank. My mistake. I'll do some more research on that.

 

[striker2]

a normal FPR is a mechanical device with a spring and diaphragm that regulates the pressure by allowing any excess fuel to bleed off and return to the fuel tank.

 

[aboythatskates]

Not sure exactly how the cougars system is. But notmally returnless systems the fpr does bleed it inside of the tank

 

[mixtape]

personally I would recommend at least 32lb injectors for 300HP on a V6. my VR4 came with 360cc injectors (~34lb) and at the stock 320BHP levels they dont have much head room. I have 450cc injectors now (~42lb) and they are almost maxed out in the high 300s WHP.

We tried running 42lb injectors, but there was an issue with tuning. I think he had trouble leaning them out. I remember reading a thread that bhiggs89 had tuning issues as well running bigger injectors. Hopefully it's not a choice of too rich or too lean :blackeye:.

Update: Unfortunately, the shop is currently backed up with other projects, so my car is being put on the back-burner for awhile.