Header options: Any other than short-tube?

[Kresnik]

As the title suggests, do we have an option other than short tube (MSDS and Weapon R - Low rpm / torque peak) headers? Our engine is similar enough to the mazda KL (2.5L V6, cam peak 6250 US and 6500 Japanese) in aspect to RPM peak and displacement that the differences I've noticed in that environment could be substantiated here as well.

The length is going to be day and night difference in performance on high-revving engines like these - These are not poor revers that favor torque like a 302 or 350, so using 'shorty' designs which benefit those engines are not ideal for one trying to make power in this engine's power-band.

Regarding the Mazda KL engines: When comparing long-tube and short-tube headers, the difference between top-end HP numbers at the wheels is nearly 10whp, in favor of the long tubes. On the other hand, low-end numbers are better for the HotShot / HotShot knock offs. Our power-band isn't in the low RPM range, so why on earth would we care about a range we zip past once in a race, rather than a range we try to stay in for the duration of the race; applicable to both drag and road-racing.

If the PaceSetter's primaries and secondaries were even-length length, then the scavaging effect would allow that engine to draw a few more ponies as well. Pacesetter being the only company to make long-tubes, and Hotshot and e-bay knock-offs of the hot shot utilize medium-length primaries, FYI.

If we don't have an option for long-tube primaries, then, I will consider dusting off my MIG welder to make some ugly beads this summer. I'd rather just buy a nice set of headers for a reasonable price though! Then again, I wouldn't want to put on some headers with short primaries to benefit something I don't care about either.

 

[95pgt-t]

hey..someone else on here speaking my language(see screen name) the longtubes havent been proven to gain 10whp over the hotshot style headers, its generally agreed to be 5-7 over the short tubes. the issues w/the ps headers,not only are the secondaries unequal length,but the primaries are too. advantages are the longer primaries and smaller diameter. with a considerable downgrade in sound and build quality.

SHM made long tubes back in the day,the only member i know of that ever had a set was gtopete. the issue w/them being the subframe had to be notched for clearance issues.

other note's,there have been several instance's were the short tube headers yielded no/to very little gains on the kl engine. the kl engine is more of a rever than the duratec,imho. i've had several pgts that had no rev limiter and they'd hit 8k all day long:shrug:
and they respond to mods differently too,were a 65mm tb hasnt been proven to show any gains on a 2.5 duratec,the mazda klde,bone stock had shown 5whp/6wtq gains from the larger tb.

 

[Kresnik]

Ah yep, that's an obvious name for me.

The older pace-setters that didn't have the dual ball-union have been tested numerous times and have had their results posted on probetalk and mx6 over the years. I'll digress to the testing of anything 'new' that they have made in the last six or so years. The dynos that I've seen are from cars that are additionally modded - they aren't bone stock. So that's an X-factor to take into consideration. But the fact that they consistently yield higher gains is the principle though.

If you compare the headers next to one another, the metal on the PS headers is at-least 3 times thicker, not including the ceramic coating. The thicker metal will retain more heat. Mild steel compared to stainless also holds heat (and rust) better (boo on nickle), and the coating is tried and true. The smaller primaries are also better, because like all the before mentioned items, they help the exhaust gas maintain a better velocity. The exhaust performance key is velocity, not flow; else we'd all have sewer pipes attached to our cars. (See a modern honda! )

But anyhow, this isn't about wonderful KL engines, it's about fords own kl.. the 2.5L duratech. Which, btw, was spawned in response to mazda refusing to allow ford access to the ZE or ability to re-design the KL to their own fitting, as to make a true 'gts' model. It would have been wonderful to have a SVT Probe.. but that just didn't happen. The GTS ended up having racing stripes, a 23 on the vin and a higher price tag. How boring!

But in regards to the KL, it shares a lot in design with the duratec. They are both rev-happy engines, no denying it. If the duratec wasn't so, then it wouldn't peek at 6500 stock. And, btw, you can rev a kl high - but unless you have a radically re-designed intake and wild cam profile, you will not make any power post 6500. The KL engine will valve float past 7200 also. If you try to rev a ZE past 7200.. well, I hope you upgraded those piss-poor JDM valve keepers.

So what is proven for a high-revving engine will work for a high-revving engine, right? Longer, in this case, is better.

The KL intake manifold is a mess, and VRIS is the only reason that the car can make any reasonable power. Period. With that in mind, most /anything/ is going to allow that engine to breath better, and well, mazda-tuned ecu's do seemingly work better with modding than system III/IV/V Ford computers. But of course, a tune will fix that right up. The cosworth engineered IM on our SVTs, however, is very well designed inside and out. So it's only natural for a slight change in air dynamics to not really improve it greatly. Velocity here, like exhaust, is of great consideration. I really cannot stress enough of how ill-designed the stock KL intake manifold is. The front and rear plenums don't even have the same volume or resonance characteristics! gah! Okay, enough of that.. back to duratech.


So.. no one makes long-tube headers for us?

hey..someone else on here speaking my language(see screen name) the longtubes havent been proven to gain 10whp over the hotshot style headers, its generally agreed to be 5-7 over the short tubes. the issues w/the ps headers,not only are the secondaries unequal length,but the primaries are too. advantages are the longer primaries and smaller diameter. with a considerable downgrade in sound and build quality.

SHM made long tubes back in the day,the only member i know of that ever had a set was gtopete. the issue w/them being the subframe had to be notched for clearance issues.

other note's,there have been several instance's were the short tube headers yielded no/to very little gains on the kl engine. the kl engine is more of a rever than the duratec,imho. i've had several pgts that had no rev limiter and they'd hit 8k all day long:shrug:
and they respond to mods differently too,were a 65mm tb hasnt been proven to show any gains on a 2.5 duratec,the mazda klde,bone stock had shown 5whp/6wtq gains from the larger tb.

 

[tropictour]

Sean Hyland was the only manufacturer of long tube style headers on the CDW-27 platform. The problem was that they were around $1100 for a set, but apparently they made pretty substantial gains. There are a few sets floating around still I believe. Currently the only performance headers for our cars are MSDS headers.
-tropictour

 

[Harrry]

Gains???? not really. It was IIRC dyno'd at 1-2 whp over the msds. It wasn't that much of a difference.

Why spend 1100 on SH LTH when you can buy msds for 650 total.

 

[Pudmunkie]

New members trying to re-invent the wheel. You don't think after more than 10 years from the start of production someone might have tried a set? Did you think to search the old forums?:shrug:

 

[95pgt-t]

no,not in years. iirc they were something expensive too,upwards of a grand.
have you been on PT lately? the ze manifold upgrade is going to the thing of the past,the 99-02 klg4 626 manifold w/the right porting is it now.
i'm not sure i agree w/you on the duratec being spawned from the lack of availability to the kl design. both engine's have been around for about the same length of time. and really arent that similar,timing belt vs timing chain,alt in the rear vs alt in the front,waterpump cam driven vs belt driven,disty vs coil pack. stroke is different,kl has hla(up til 98)

but back to your question. it would be nice to see some long tubes on the market

 

[Kresnik]

New members trying to re-invent the wheel. You don't think after more than 10 years from the start of production someone might have tried a set? Did you think to search the old forums?:shrug:

This market is a niche, at best. For comparison sake, The Mazda KL and FS engines are vastly more popular in the after-market, but even still, they really aren't worth the time of most large scale companies. As such they don't enjoy a lot of support, so it might be a reasonable deduction of logic to infer that our platform will exist with a similar fate.

No?


On the other hand, B16B and 350's are HUGELY popular, and as such, everyone makes something for them. Large companies find it worth their time to make something similar yet different (such as header profiles, in this case), so that they can bring mass-appeal to the market in effort to obtain as many costumers from a more lucrative base.

This is business 101, not to sound like a dick about it.

So in smaller market like this, when we have one thing works, and the demand isn't really out there (who really races a 2.5L duratech? If it IS popular for that application, please do enlighten me) for something else that's similar-yet-different, then it's reasonable to understand that 'reinventing the wheel' to give it a different off-set, so to speak, will not occur for one principle reason. Money. Businesses are there for this, first and foremost.

Can more power actually be extracted (recovered) with a set of headers that are tuned for an ideal EG velocity at X RPM (Ideally cam peak for us, not torque peak or less) and increase scavaging effect at the same time? Absolutely!

So my original question begs this: Has any company found it worth their time to produce a good set or not. It appears that the answer is closer to 'sort of but not really' than anything else. If this understanding is indeed the case here, then I'll flow-bench an SVT head, calculate an ideal velocity for a given range, then design and fabricate a set of headers who's volume, length and diameter that will substantiate gains more consistent and complimenting with our proper power-band.

Will they perform, or will they be junk? Who knows, who cares. It'll be a fun exercise anyhow.


Anyhow.. the topic is starting to get off track, and I'm to blame as much as anyone else, so let's reducing the trolling.

 

[Kresnik]

no,not in years. iirc they were something expensive too,upwards of a grand.
have you been on PT lately? the ze manifold upgrade is going to the thing of the past,the 99-02 klg4 626 manifold w/the right porting is it now.
i'm not sure i agree w/you on the duratec being spawned from the lack of availability to the kl design. both engine's have been around for about the same length of time. and really arent that similar,timing belt vs timing chain,alt in the rear vs alt in the front,waterpump cam driven vs belt driven,disty vs coil pack. stroke is different,kl has hla(up til 98)

but back to your question. it would be nice to see some long tubes on the market

Perhaps it's up to debate on the existence of the duratech, but the fact does remain that Mazda will not allow modification of their engines to anyone who uses them, which also includes hyundai, who utilizes a de-cammed FE3 in some of their cars. Mazda likes to build a crippled version of their JDM spec engine and allow 3rd parties to put it in their cars. Ford, and and Hyundai are the only main-stream automotive manufactures that use these engines to my knowledge, however, I wouldn't be surprised if several Chinese automotive companies don't use Mazda enignes; or at least, reverse engineered versions of which.

It's interesting that the KL guys are just /now/ getting into the G4, this is something that I worked with a few people years ago on. Coil v.s. disty is not so much an engine feature, as it is ignition - and we all know that the G4 had this stock, while retaining most all of the features of the DE.

The solid lifters were a welcome and needed upgraded for that platform IMHO. Even the First gen rocker-arm lifters were more reliable, quiet and easy to replace.

As such, I maintain that these engines are similar, however, they aren't sister platforms by any means. So, don't misunderstand me there.

 

[biminiLX]

I definitely think you'll see gains with a long-tube, optimal set of headers.
But like those mentioned above, it doesn't seem to be worth the time/expense/install for minimal gains.
Now, if you can fab up a set like mentioned, I think it'd be worth it.

New members trying to re-invent the wheel. You don't think after more than 10 years from the start of production someone might have tried a set? Did you think to search the old forums?:shrug:

Ahh, the warm welcome of CEG. I love the attitude to new members, especially ones that seem to have good knowledge and are having a decent contribution w/ tech input. Also, the old form search is painful.
-J

 

[Kresnik]

I definitely think you'll see gains with a long-tube, optimal set of headers.
But like those mentioned above, it doesn't seem to be worth the time/expense/install for minimal gains.
Now, if you can fab up a set like mentioned, I think it'd be worth it.


Ahh, the warm welcome of CEG. I love the attitude to new members, especially ones that seem to have good knowledge and are having a decent contribution w/ tech input. Also, the old form search is painful.
-J

Thanks for the warm(er) welcome! Being that I am new to this forum, I don't know anything about an 'old forum' here, so naturally, I wouldn't think to look there.

If for nothing else than applying this theory and proving a point, it'll be fun!

 

[95pgt-t]

kia uses or used the detuned version of the fe3 in the sportage. my buddy has a turbo'd fe in his 1g pgt...its a beast:drool: the duratec(no h) was made by porsche to begin with,long before mazda used the kl. people have used the g4 manifold before,but in stock form it doesnt do a whole lot,they arent that easy to find...and nobody knows the actual vris points of it.:shrug:

your questioned has been answered,long tube headers or good quality were made at one point,but at 1200 dollars,along w/the required mod to your subframe they were deemed not worth the dollar to hp

 

[Barge]

The layout of the engine makes equal length headers rather difficult to package.

I'd probably prefer to see an varied length header anyway... even if it is long. If you vary the primary lengths by a couple inches each you can broaden the power band instead of just tuning for one specific RPM basically.

Also even if you do manage to fit long tubes, you then run into an issue of getting the secondary tubing lengths to match up. Hence the crappy u/kink bend in the stock Y pipe and the MSDS headers.

Also it's almost impossible to compare the MSDS to a long tube unless they are both run on the same car, same dyno, with a tune specific to each set of headers.

This has never been done to my knoweldge and i have no idea if the SHM headers are anything like what I would build.

 

[bensenvill]

It may be worth adding that ~4 years ago there was some serious talk with msds about doing a long tube set. I believe he also wanted ~1200 a set for them and there was the typical ceg/neco pissing and moaning about every little detail [like not getting stainless], and the negotiations fell flat on their face.

having personally held a new set of SHMs, I still have no idea how those are suppose to fit inside our engine bay, it just doesnt look possible.

 

[Kresnik]

$1,200, no matter how much power you get, is not justified by some pipes and fancy design. No way. Ceramic coated with a nice thick gauge of steel and a nice flex pipe is not justified at even half of that cost. I could see why people would complain.


But, it is interesting to know that this has been taken into consideration in the past.

 

[Pudmunkie]

This market is a niche, at best. For comparison sake, The Mazda KL and FS engines are vastly more popular in the after-market, but even still, they really aren't worth the time of most large scale companies. As such they don't enjoy a lot of support, so it might be a reasonable deduction of logic to infer that our platform will exist with a similar fate.

No?


On the other hand, B16B and 350's are HUGELY popular, and as such, everyone makes something for them. Large companies find it worth their time to make something similar yet different (such as header profiles, in this case), so that they can bring mass-appeal to the market in effort to obtain as many costumers from a more lucrative base.

This is business 101, not to sound like a dick about it.

So in smaller market like this, when we have one thing works, and the demand isn't really out there (who really races a 2.5L duratech? If it IS popular for that application, please do enlighten me) for something else that's similar-yet-different, then it's reasonable to understand that 'reinventing the wheel' to give it a different off-set, so to speak, will not occur for one principle reason. Money. Businesses are there for this, first and foremost.

Can more power actually be extracted (recovered) with a set of headers that are tuned for an ideal EG velocity at X RPM (Ideally cam peak for us, not torque peak or less) and increase scavaging effect at the same time? Absolutely!

So my original question begs this: Has any company found it worth their time to produce a good set or not. It appears that the answer is closer to 'sort of but not really' than anything else. If this understanding is indeed the case here, then I'll flow-bench an SVT head, calculate an ideal velocity for a given range, then design and fabricate a set of headers who's volume, length and diameter that will substantiate gains more consistent and complimenting with our proper power-band.

Will they perform, or will they be junk? Who knows, who cares. It'll be a fun exercise anyhow.


Anyhow.. the topic is starting to get off track, and I'm to blame as much as anyone else, so let's reducing the trolling.

And what here is contrary to what I said? Don't try and tell me about 'business 101', I thought what I said was pretty obvious. The platform has been out for more than 10 years. In that time frame if it made fiscal sense to invest in longtube headers a company would have done it... Oh wait, SHM did, and they weren't worth it!

Ahh, the warm welcome of CEG. I love the attitude to new members, especially ones that seem to have good knowledge and are having a decent contribution w/ tech input. Also, the old form search is painful.
-J

I don't see what was wrong with my reply? Pretty standard tone reply. I could have been a dick about it :shrug:. Are we supposed to treat new members like they wear special helmets??

 

[Barge]

$1,200, no matter how much power you get, is not justified by some pipes and fancy design. No way. Ceramic coated with a nice thick gauge of steel and a nice flex pipe is not justified at even half of that cost. I could see why people would complain.


But, it is interesting to know that this has been taken into consideration in the past.

Yes, because all you need to make headers is some metal, ceramic coating, and a flex pipe.

Heck, they should cost like $50.

You do know that your average single mandrel bent piece can be anywhere from 15-25 bucks. Of course you could also make a proto out of mandrel pieces and then get it 3D mapped and all mandrel bent on a machine. I'm sure that would only cost like 25 cents or something.

If it's so easy and cheap why don't you whip up a set and mass produce them for $600.

 

[95pgt-t]

i've had 100 dollar headers before..worked fine:shrug:

 

[tozovr]

Yes, because all you need to make headers is some metal, ceramic coating, and a flex pipe.

Heck, they should cost like $50.

You do know that your average single mandrel bent piece can be anywhere from 15-25 bucks. Of course you could also make a proto out of mandrel pieces and then get it 3D mapped and all mandrel bent on a machine. I'm sure that would only cost like 25 cents or something.

If it's so easy and cheap why don't you whip up a set and mass produce them for $600.

If he has a mandrel bender then I'm guessing it would be far less LOL. I wouldn't assume, if he's going to "fab" them, that he'd hoof it down to the local performance exhaust shop with some scribbles on a napkin and ask them to fab them up.

I don't think he'd mass produce them either...the market has obviously not shown a high demand, but there may be a few guys interested and willing to step up. It's about 100x worse in the SHO "community." Guys piss and moan all day, everyday about no aftermarket support, but when folks offer something out, and it's not $4 with a free soft drink, they complain...on the internet...in a very serious tone LOL.

 

[Kresnik]

Yes, because all you need to make headers is some metal, ceramic coating, and a flex pipe.

Heck, they should cost like $50.

You do know that your average single mandrel bent piece can be anywhere from 15-25 bucks. Of course you could also make a proto out of mandrel pieces and then get it 3D mapped and all mandrel bent on a machine. I'm sure that would only cost like 25 cents or something.

If it's so easy and cheap why don't you whip up a set and mass produce them for $600.

Oh, someone is pissy today! Chill-out guy, and don't vent your angst at me - you don't know me.

Now, let's maintain a conducive environment and talk to one another like adults - not 16 year olds with attitude problems.

-------

If you are in business to have a decent product at a decent price, you shouldn't try re-coup that entire 'loss' in the sales of two or three products. You'll out-price your self and not excel in the market. China-Mart (wal mart) has taught us that a modern business empire will flourish in the market by competitive pricing; not exclusive pricing.

Now, to quantify some discrepancies in your retort:

If you buy single pieces of mandrel bends on eBay or other websites, with out any wholesaler or bulk discount, sure, you'll pay upwards of $15 each. I personally wouldn't pay that much for a single bend, nor have I ever had to. With the current agreements that I have with a fabrication shop, exhaust shop and machine shop (amongst other places), the raw material alone would be unlikely to exceed $100 to prototype a set of headers; the flex pipe being the single-most expensive item, FYI. With out such a hook-up, sure, it'll cost ya a bit more. Mind you, this isn't considering any welding supplies, grinding supplies, of the cost of paper and pencil to draft the item, electricity to power the computer, any coatings, labor, bead-blasting, dyno testing, gaskets or such. <-- Get where I'm going with that? Good!

I've had plenty of experience with CAD and free-hand drafting (which is rare amongst my generation) and a good understanding of the fluid and gas dynamics. A couple of calculations on some scratch paper along with a Corona & lime would be a pretty good start for proper '3D mapping' to determine the correct environment to facilitate an ideal velocity to ease top-end breathing.

I should probably factor the beer and lime into the cost too.. damn, maybe it WILL break the $100 mark!

There are plenty of ways to access mandrel bent steel out-side of the automotive industry as well, that being said, it's been my experience that they have been much less expensive to obtain through those avenues as well. *shrug* As such, that would be the second least expensive item of this build - second only to straight pipe mild-steel used for the longer runs.