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Is this considered a VACUUM Leak?

iskoos

CEG'er
Joined
May 23, 2008
Messages
245
Location
Orlando, FL
Hi,

I have been trying to track down my stumbling idle problem for some time and ruled out many common causes.
Lots of people bet on vacuum leak. I checked all the lines and couldn't find one. I didn't check IM gasket however.
I am suspecting the EGR valve may not sit well and might be leaking; letting exhaust gases into intake during idle.

So my question simply: Does this(EGR flow into intake during idle) considered a vacuum leak?
 
No, but the IM leak would be, or a leak in the hose leading to the EGR (the delicate, usually green plastic, one) An EGR not staying closed causes bad idle/quitting.
 
Actually, it is. The engine is expecting no leak there at idle. Whereas a normal vacuum leak would just leak air, EGR leaks exhaust, which has already been burned once and will not support combustion. An air leak will, to a certain point. So EGR has a double whammy. It is unmetered something or other (since it's not air), which throws off idle fuel calculations, and it also takes the place of something that can burn. Normal properly metered EGR and normal PCV flow are vacuum leaks, but of a sort that is provided for in the fuel/air tuning range of the PCM.
 
So Okay then I was kind of right on my thinking.
During idle there is great amount of vacuum in the intake and any leak(torn gasket or any cracked vacuum hoses) will cause unmetered air to be sucked in and throw the air/fuel ratio.
Leaking EGR valve will let exhaust gases into intake. Yes it is not air but it is still a gas and will mess up air/fuel ratio and it will be unmetered because there is supposed to be no EGR flow during idle. Thus it can be considered a vacuum leak.

Looks like I will have to get it out to test it. It seems an easy tast but it is not on Zetec engines.
 
If the EGR was not closing fully and thus allowing gas to flow through it all the time you would get an excessive EGR flow code. also, the EGR doesnt actually change the air/fuel ratio, since its a non-combustable gas, it only dilutes it. at idle, if the EGR is flowing, it may dilute it enough that you dont get a good burn and the engine stumbles slightly.

now, the EGR is not normally an issue on the zetec engines. your more likely to have a spark issue, either from plugs or wires, or a fueling issue from either a dying pump or FPR. check the fuel pressure at idle and 2500RPMS. should be about 40PSI. also do a snap throttle check and watch the pressure. let us know what you find.
 
Check your intake hoses? A loose clamp can cause this at idle but now while driving.
 
The only code I am getting is 335(mine is OBD-I) no other codes.

Here is exactly what happens:

You start the car, it cranks up normal. However; it idles a bit higher rpm than usual. This goes for abuot 10 seconds and than rpms drops to normal idle point and right at that moment, engine stumbles hard and if it is not warm enough, it stalls.
If I crank it again, it will start right up but same will happen. So I keep my foot on the gas and warm up the engine for about 30 seconds, then remove my foot, it then idles on its own. However every 20-30 seconds, it gets into that stumbling stage. It doesn't stall since it is warm but it does NOT idle okay.

There is NO problem at any cruise speed or at acceleration. Problem happens at idle ONLY!..

Did all the following so far:

-Cleaned Oil separator
-Changed PCV valve
-Cleaned TB
-Cleaned and replaced IAC valve
-Replaced DPFE sensor
-Replaced EVR selenoid
-Checked EGR valve (Suck test only, did NOT remove)
-Cleaned and replaced MAF sensor
-Checked all the vacuum hoses behind the intake and found no cracks
-Checked EVAP selenoid and hoses found no problem

Plugs are new 3 months old (Autolite Platinum)
Plug wires(Motorcraft) 3 years old

The only two things left in my list are changing the fuel filter(4 years old) and removing and cleaning the EGR valve(which I am trying to avoid if it is not the problem because lots of work to remove it)

It seemed not a complicated problem at first but have been battling with it for close to 2 months with no success.

So do bad plugs, plug wires or fuel pump REALLY do cause that?
 
I would go ahead and replace the fuel filter, its cheap, easy(right by the passenger side rear wheel under the car) and looks like time to replace.
 
EGR leaking at idle actually DOES change fuel/air ratio, just maybe not the way you're thinking. True enough, it does not change f/a of what's in manifold, but what happens when it hits the O2 sensor? The motor at idle requires very little mass to burn, an EGR leak could easily be very large in relation to f/a amount required. On normal idle, voltage jumping both above and below .5 volt on O2 as computer richens and leans injectors by pulse width. When a big mass of unburned (because it's ALREADY burned!), recycled EGR hits O2, in addition to the normal burned product, sensor is going to be predisposed toward the rich side. That's because it will see "no oxygen" and computer will lean up to compensate. The portion of EGR that leaks though is not going to change INSTANTLY as computer expects and it will be confused trying to correct for it with overlong lean command. Correct me if I'm wrong, I tried to think this out, but my hard drive is getting old..........
 
Also, as an aside, I'm not so sure that codes just show up as soon as something goes wrong. I'm actually wondering if Ford has dampened the computer's ability to log a code as soon as it happens. Not too sure about my Contour, but I'd stake my money they've done it to Focus. Witness the water temperature gauges that don't register accurately, I've put a laptop on both cars and the water temp does not move in a normal manner, Focus gauge will stay cold until around 170 then go to the middle quickly and stay there even when water temp is 235 degrees! Doesn't move into the red zone till like 250 (when commanded by PCM, there's the catch!), then it's all at once. Meaning you don't have any real idea of how hot your vehicle is until it's burning down. Same thing with code logging, have run both cars when problems showed up, they will show no codes until car has run for a good while with what may be major problem. Have seen the Focus run so bad that it wouldn't even stay running, over and over until I finally ran short term fuel trim and realized there was a problem with it, no code showed up. Finally a "pending" code showed up, that's some efficient response. Have unplugged MAF sensor and drove around for a day until code FINALLY showed up. My boy's Focus when DPFE failed twice drives for a week before registers a problem with it. Totally disable EGR, ditto a week. I think they've done something to drop the number of complaints by customers by highly damping the computer's response to errors.
 
amc49,

Thanks for your input. Before I start, I need to tell you that I haven't removed and checked the EGR valve yet nor did I replace the fuel filter. My theory of EGR leak is just a guess based on the symptoms I am getting. I maybe right or wrong. Unfortunately I won't know till I get my hands on it. Maybe this weekend. I can work on it a little...

As for the main question, I am looking at it this way. People say EGR flow into intake manifold does NOT change a/f ratio. I do NOT get this!..
Okay EGR consists of burned gases and may not include O2 to help combustion but it is a type of gas that flows into intake manifold and it has a mass, volume. It DOES take up space once it is let into intake and this into cylinders. The engine is designed to have fuel air ratio of 14.7. And it is expecting to get it as FUEL and AIR... NOT as fuel and some burned hydro carbons (I am talking about idle stage of course). If EGR gets into intake, it will replace air and instead of only air gets into cylinders, AIR and EGR mix will do. Thus there won't be enough O2(oxidizer) to provide optimum combustion conditions. And the engine's idle will(should) get effected.
The car is designed as NO EGR going in to intake during idle. If this is changed by EGR letting in, it will mess up things. I don't think engine is smart enough to know that this is EGR not air and it shouldn't count in the fuel air ratio...
This is my take...

And I do agree your approach on the codes. Contours were very famous on engine temperature gauges showing almost at maximum. So I wouldn't be surprisez if FORD did use some techniques to prevent this happenin on some other models like Focus...
 
After thinking about it a bit more, here's another thought. Person above mentioned that EGR leak at idle might prevent a proper "burn". That's true. Take it one step further, that "improper" burn would be similar to a weak ignition misfire in that not all mixture would be burned, results would be patchy leaving some combustibles left. Those combustibles along with the included oxygen would pass out exhaust and the improper oxygen content would again confuse the computer as to the true outcome of the burn. It may not be part of the as intended f/a ratio, but to think that it won't affect computer's take on f/a is not right. If that statement were TRUE, then leaky EGR at idle would NOT send motor into a spastic dance. If ratio is 14.7/1 and you add 10% exhaust gas to it by mass, guess what? You don't have 14.7/1 any more. You have spread burned gas molecules amongst your f/a molecules, it will not light off or burn as easy.
 
After thinking about it a bit more, here's another thought. Person above mentioned that EGR leak at idle might prevent a proper "burn". That's true. Take it one step further, that "improper" burn would be similar to a weak ignition misfire in that not all mixture would be burned, results would be patchy leaving some combustibles left. Those combustibles along with the included oxygen would pass out exhaust and the improper oxygen content would again confuse the computer as to the true outcome of the burn. It may not be part of the as intended f/a ratio, but to think that it won't affect computer's take on f/a is not right. If that statement were TRUE, then leaky EGR at idle would NOT send motor into a spastic dance. If ratio is 14.7/1 and you add 10% exhaust gas to it by mass, guess what? You don't have 14.7/1 any more. You have spread burned gas molecules amongst your f/a molecules, it will not light off or burn as easy.
let me see if i can explain this. under normal idle you have an A/F ratio that bounces back and forth between slightly leaner and richer than stoich (14.7:1), for this discussion ill say its at stoich all the time for simplicities sake and since it should only ever be off stoich slightly anyways. if the EGR is leaking and allowing say (ill use your number) 10% exhaust gas, which is inert and no longer burnable, into the intake manifold, then your theory is that the A/F will no longer be 14.7:1. in all actuallity it will just be diluted (even when using the EGR at cruise thats all it does). the reason it does this is because the engine is only going to pull so much air into the cylinders. without the EGR open it pulls 100% of the air across the MAF and into the cylinders. if the EGR is leaking say 10% it now only pulls 90% of the air across the MAF. the PCM sees less airflow and decreases the amount of fuel injected to maintain the proper 14.7:1, however you the burnable mixture is only 90% of what it should be. this would result in a weak burn and cause a stumbling idle. the O2 sensor(s) still read that the A/F was 14.7:1 which is why your not likely to get a lean or rich code with a leaking EGR. you should get an EGR flow excessive since its not supposed to flow anything at idle.

does that make more sense or are you still confused?






the reason the CEL takes so loong to come on is because the fault has to be detected a certain number of times (usually 2 or 3) within a certain number of drive cycles. also, the PCM doesnt check everything all the time, but rather only checks certain things after certain paramiters (time, temp, load, etc) have been met.

as for the temp gauge on the focus, its a known fact that the temp sending units for the gauge on the zetecs are poorly calibrated units from the factory. some people may see the gauge stay up near the red line all the time while others it may stay really low all the time. there are 2 temp sensors. one is a sensor for the PCM, its on the top of the thermostat housing. the other is the sending unit specifically for the gauge (the PCM does not see this one nor does the PCM controll the gauge), its on the bottom of the thermostat housing. the second one is the one that needs to be replaced, doing so should solve the gauge issues.
 
I generally don't like to throw a lot of parts at a problem. With a bad idle, first thing I do is remove as many variables as I can. I have invested in a lot of rubber caps/plugs, first thing I do is totally weed out vacuum leaks by hoses and add on equipment. I will hunt down EVERY vacuum line coming off motor (PCV too) and plug it AT MOTOR to guarantee no leak there, it's simply WAY too easy to overlook a vacuum leak in a line or carbon canister or whatever attachment. Therefore, I block them reliably at the motor. Same with suspect EGR, if I don't find the problem pretty fast, screw the entire system! I will (and have) make a plate to block off the EGR mounting positon entirely, thus kicking that potential problem across the street. Thin sheetmetal can often be cut to slide under valve thus blocking it off from intake. Those two things can get you well along to figuring out the problem. If you've done them reliably, then you can assume not EGR and if vacuum leak, it's at the intake joints/gaskets or throttle body. Weed out one thing at a time, but don't guess BE SURE. You will slowly work your problem stack down to a few things. I hear about cleaning EGR valves, if the stem/poppet is internal, you're wasting your time my view. I buy new, BUT I make sure I gotta have it first. Shouldn't be fuel pump or filter, they usually show worse on demand, you say car runs fine otherwise (higher rpm). I pressure check like the guy said before. Are you sure motor in sound mechanical conditon? One of the earmarks of low compression from slow wear is inconsistent idle quality along with occasional dying. If motor is high mileage I usually compression test pretty early, can save you lots of trouble hunting for "ghost problems".
 
If you read the Focus owner's manual in the failsafe cooling explanation they clearly state that the PCM moves the needle into the red zone.
 
If you read the Focus owner's manual in the failsafe cooling explanation they clearly state that the PCM moves the needle into the red zone.
then the PCM will move the gauge to full hot if it sees temps that are considered dangerous. other than that the PCM doesnt control the gauge
 
Why is the burn weak since the f/a is still normal????????? You may have a proper stoichiometric ratio but once it's mixed with EGR it is NOT STOICHIOMETRIC any more, at least to the motor and the guy who invented physics. You have mixed burned molecules along with unburned, the unburned will not be as close to each other as before and the mix WILL BE TILTED. It will NOT burn as easy as before when pure f/a and nothing else. Dilution affects EFFECTIVE f/a ratio to where it will not act like before. I say EFFECTIVE because textbook f/a does not apply here, the motor is smart enough to know the difference even if people ain't. When the burn is patchy, parts of the mixture don't ignite but pass out the exhaust. The PCM will pick up on that. It will also try to correct based on the patchy mixture which will have varying amounts of oxygen in it. Throw a laptop onto car and you can watch it. What is the definition of "stoichiometric"? 14.7/1 a/f ratio. Of what use is that? It's the amount of air required to burn every last bit of fuel. That's assuming it's WELL MIXED AND PROPERLY SPREAD OUT so ignition source can set it off and so it can stay burning until most of it is gone. When you mixed burned product with that, you CHANGED IT, it will not perform as before. By the way the 10% I picked because the usual "cruise" amount or so. If you think about the extremely small amount of f/a needed for idle, then a stuck EGR could very easily be 30% of idle mixture.
 
Oh this is getting so dangerous....Are we saying here that Ford cannot now make a gauge that can hit the red zone on its' own??? Also, on the post above you clearly stated that the PCM does NOT control the gauge, you really need to make up your mind. Either it does or it doesn't..........if the gauge were anywhere accurate, it would have already been in the red zone. My point also is that once they hooked up the PCM to that gauge please don't tell me that they won't use that ability for other, shadier things, such as the ability to make you think motor is normal temp when it's not. It's just not in the corporate mantra anymore. I have bought car after car from these people and watched a steady stream of things happen that in my view are calculated to do nothing but separate customers from their cash in as large quantities as possible.
 
Why is the burn weak since the f/a is still normal????????? You may have a proper stoichiometric ratio but once it's mixed with EGR it is NOT STOICHIOMETRIC any more, at least to the motor and the guy who invented physics. You have mixed burned molecules along with unburned, the unburned will not be as close to each other as before and the mix WILL BE TILTED. It will NOT burn as easy as before when pure f/a and nothing else. Dilution affects EFFECTIVE f/a ratio to where it will not act like before. I say EFFECTIVE because textbook f/a does not apply here, the motor is smart enough to know the difference even if people ain't. When the burn is patchy, parts of the mixture don't ignite but pass out the exhaust. The PCM will pick up on that. It will also try to correct based on the patchy mixture which will have varying amounts of oxygen in it. Throw a laptop onto car and you can watch it. What is the definition of "stoichiometric"? 14.7/1 a/f ratio. Of what use is that? It's the amount of air required to burn every last bit of fuel. That's assuming it's WELL MIXED AND PROPERLY SPREAD OUT so ignition source can set it off and so it can stay burning until most of it is gone. When you mixed burned product with that, you CHANGED IT, it will not perform as before. By the way the 10% I picked because the usual "cruise" amount or so. If you think about the extremely small amount of f/a needed for idle, then a stuck EGR could very easily be 30% of idle mixture.

the burn is weak because, as you stated, the A/F is more spread out in the entire mixture. the burnable mixture is still stoich though because the exhaust gas is now inert, just like the nitrogen in the air. it goes in, and comes right back out, unchanged. the amount of burnable air/fuel that is pulled into the engine is still 14.7:1. you will have the right amount of air to burn every last bit of fuel, but because its spread out more due to the exhaust gas taking up room in the combustion chamber, it wont burn effectivily.

after thinking about it, i think we are both trying to say the same thing. while the actual amount of air and fuel would be 14.7:1, the exhaust gases spreads them to far apart to burn effectivly, resulting in a weak burn/incomplete burn/misfire.

Oh this is getting so dangerous....Are we saying here that Ford cannot now make a gauge that can hit the red zone on its' own??? Also, on the post above you clearly stated that the PCM does NOT control the gauge, you really need to make up your mind. Either it does or it doesn't..........if the gauge were anywhere accurate, it would have already been in the red zone. My point also is that once they hooked up the PCM to that gauge please don't tell me that they won't use that ability for other, shadier things, such as the ability to make you think motor is normal temp when it's not. It's just not in the corporate mantra anymore. I have bought car after car from these people and watched a steady stream of things happen that in my view are calculated to do nothing but separate customers from their cash in as large quantities as possible.

I never said the gauge couldnt hit the red zone on its own, just that the sending units were poorly calibrated. i presume ford saw engines from the contour/cougar/ZX2 overheat without the gauge ever hitting the red zone. so as a fail safe, they hooked the PCM up to the gauge and programmed it to pull the needle all the way to the red zone, IF the PCMs sensor saw dangerous temps. im sure that if you were to heat up the gauge sending unit enough it would pull the needle into the red zone, problem is, the temp needed to do that is aparantly higher than what is safe for engines.

i suspect the PCM is only hooked up to one side of the gauge to pull it to the red zone if needed, however i wouldnt be suprised if ford had hooked it up to the gauge fully in order to keep the needle in the middle all the time either.



ps, would you please answer in just one post. double posting is technically against forum rules, and its rather anoying.
 
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