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New 3L option. No grinding or welding

T

todras

Pretty fly for a white guy *cowbell*
Joined
May 29, 2000
Messages
13,188
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
I was over at HMS last week and I witnessed something new to me. Terry had a customer's '98 SVT. This was a return style car and had a brand new '05 Taurus 3L in it. Had the '05 intake manifold and new style waterpump. It doesn't have a belt tensioner it appears. You have to pull the waterpump to replace the belt which is no biggie. Now you might say oh yippee an '05 will work too. Well, the cool thing was that Terry had the return fuel line hanging in the breeze and the car ran like a new car. He and Dom (FCO) have discovered a way to make the Escape mechanical fuel sender work on the Contour. Now this is for return style cars only. Will not work on returnless unfortunately. Everything on this '05 engine was stock except the throttle body, EGR pipe, and injector harness. Terry had to fab the TB bracket to accept the SVT cable and bend the EGR pipe just a little with a touch of heat. The injector clips have to be soldered in too. The engine did have an '03 Escape LIM and fuel rail. These are all off the shelf parts though. No grinding of the heads, no mismatched injectors. From what he said there are about 4-5 of these cars rolling around now. Dom has done a few of these in OH and they put out 203 HP 209TQ to the ground with gutted cats. On a Mustang dyno I believe. I'm pretty certain this is the way I'm going to go on my SVT. I'm going to use the full oval port I have and get the Escape rail, LIM, and sender. Voila! No welded rails, ground heads or custom LIMs.:cool: Now I hope Terry shares his secret on how he did the fuel system.:laugh:
 
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Do you know what they are running for PCM's? I've been thinking about this too. Who wants to spend more money for all those fancy pants SVT parts anyway...not this guy!
 
It may be a lot less work to build (05+) but its also going to be a lot more expensive. Look at the taurus vs escape prices.

If you just use this new magical fuel invention terry has made with an older block you still need to figure out the throttle body, EGR block off, Vacuum lines, etc.

I also dont see any particular reason why the newer motors would be putting out more power, it just looks like its at the upper end of the large standard of deviation all the different builds have. Seems to be more the condition of the motor and the installer :shrug: and what is with that entire site using the most retarded dyno parameters? std instead of SAE, time instead of RPM.... seems a little dumb imo

Plus oval port intakes are ugly :)
 
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I wish they had RPM at the bottom so we could see just when the power starts to drop off. Its a little misleading the way it is now. I'm guessing thats how long the pull took to complete?
 
Pudmunkie said:
It may be a lot less work to build (05+) but its also going to be a lot more expensive. Look at the taurus vs escape prices.

If you just use this new magical fuel invention terry has made with an older block you still need to figure out the throttle body, EGR block off, Vacuum lines, etc.

I also dont see any particular reason why the newer motors would be putting out more power, it just looks like its at the upper end of the large standard of deviation all the different builds have. Seems to be more the condition of the motor and the installer :shrug: and what is with that entire site using the most retarded dyno parameters? std instead of SAE, time instead of RPM.... seems a little dumb imo

Plus oval port intakes are ugly :)
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more expensive how? The TB bracket isn't that much work for an 05 compared to the older 3L. Where did you read EGR block off? Vaccum lines are cake.

FWIW the '05 intake mani. looks like the ST aluminum manifold. ;)

See left.

BTW you also need to use an older valve cover for the front so the coil pack can bolt up front. I guess you could still use the 2.5 but the pack would be a little bit of a pain to get to.

Who cares what the ovalport looks like?:rolleyes:
 
todras said:
more expensive how? The TB bracket isn't that much work for an 05 compared to the older 3L. Where did you read EGR block off? Vaccum lines are cake.

FWIW the '05 intake mani. looks like the ST aluminum manifold. ;)

See left.

BTW you also need to use an older valve cover for the front so the coil pack can bolt up front. I guess you could still use the 2.5 but the pack would be a little bit of a pain to get to.

Who cares what the ovalport looks like?:rolleyes:
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I dont know what bracket they want to use to mount the coil up front, but all the ones Rara and I tried had clearance issues. and if the 05+ is like the ST the old 2.5 wont work in the rear.

And do you seriously think a 2005 3 liter from a 500-or-whatever-taurus is going to be the SAME ($400) as a 2001-2003 taurus? hell the escape motors sell for 800+! THATS how its more expensive.

And like I said if you had read it closer....
If you just use this new magical fuel invention terry has made with an older block you still need to figure out the throttle body, EGR block off, Vacuum lines, etc.
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Am I wrong in thinking that with the old escape manifolds etc. you will still need to fabricate an EGR block off? I know you need to for an ST220 manifold... and you'll also need to do the throttle body, which while it may not be difficult, involves brazing or welding etc. which some people dont have easy access to.

Who cares what the ovalport looks like?:rolleyes:
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Me? yeah me.... Just tossing that out there. I know im not the only one that prefers the splitport manifolds
 
todras said:
FWIW the '05 intake mani. looks like the ST aluminum manifold. ;)
Click to expand...

Yeah, actually it does. Talking to a friend that does a lot of the in-house Duratec dyno work for Ford, he said that the newer plastic manifold flows very close to what the ST220 manifold does.


Pudmunkie said:
I dont know what bracket they want to use to mount the coil up front, but all the ones Rara and I tried had clearance issues. and if the 05+ is like the ST the old 2.5 wont work in the rear.
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Yeah, this is actually one of the sticking points on my car right now. I've got the coil just sitting on the front cam cover right now, but I'm pretty sure the hood won't close over it even with no bracket holding it up. I've got an ST220 coil bracket, but its designed for the 3L coilpack, and it still doesn't fit anyway.

And like I said if you had read it closer....
Am I wrong in thinking that with the old escape manifolds etc. you will still need to fabricate an EGR block off? I know you need to for an ST220 manifold... and you'll also need to do the throttle body, which while it may not be difficult, involves brazing or welding etc. which some people dont have easy access to.
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Pud, the ST220 manifold is not set up for an EGR on the manifold at all, while I'm pretty sure the plastic manifolds do have provision for them. The ST220 manifold just doesn't have a location, which is why my car got the blockoff on the header (You didn't notice there was nothing to block on the manifold?)

As to the throttle body, It's sort of a moot point, because almost no matter what you do, short of retaining the split port upper and stock throttle body, you'll need to do something with the TB cable bracket.
 
According to FCO, the '05 also has a redesigned PCV system, larger coolant ports, and as todras stated, a larger UIM. There may even be other differences... I don't think anyone has taken one apart yet to compare such things as the cams.
 
Rara said:
Pud, the ST220 manifold is not set up for an EGR on the manifold at all, while I'm pretty sure the plastic manifolds do have provision for them. The ST220 manifold just doesn't have a location, which is why my car got the blockoff on the header (You didn't notice there was nothing to block on the manifold?)
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Thats my point, using the new fuel rail stuff on an older block (due to price of the newer block etc.) means you still have to do many of the annoying things of the old swap... which is what I was getting at, to get this magic new easy swap, you have to spend a significant chunk more change it seems
 
Pudmunkie said:
Thats my point, using the new fuel rail stuff on an older block (due to price of the newer block etc.) means you still have to do many of the annoying things of the old swap... which is what I was getting at, to get this magic new easy swap, you have to spend a significant chunk more change it seems
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Seems so. But I think the point is that they use a lot of off the shelf parts, so if you want a simple swap that requires no port matching, this is a viable option. Just collect the appropriate pieces in the bone yard and go.

Either way, I don't like having a return fuel line 'hanging in the breeze' while I drive my return style Contique. Just bugs me... :nonono:
 
It's capped off at both ends. Sorry I used 'hanging in the breeze'. Remove it from the car if you feel like. Won't be used any longer. I don't know what you're not understanding Alex. Not that hard. The TB bracket I saw was not hacked. Terry made some extensions. Way different then what I had on mine. Still pretty insignificant compared to filling and grinding the heads don't you think? You also have the injector in the correct place as well. That makes it worth it for me. The 05 might be pricey but it's already 2 years old. Prices will come down as time moves on. For the coil pack Terry used an 01 front cover I think with the 3L coil bracket. See pic above of black SVT with coil pack on front. I just looked on car-part and there are 05 Taurus engines for 1000 with 10k on them. All you would need is an Escape rail, LIM,'01 front valve cover, and Escape sender. I'm sure someone on the boards has an Escape rail and LIM they'd sell from a swap fairly cheap. Get the front cover from a JY and you're good to go.
 
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Todras

the fuel rail is most likely my idea the same idea we been developing for the returnless system. Funny he comes out with the idea finally hope he not tapped into my PC......lol .........

we are selling these adapters for $100 to make any full 3 liter swap work. So for $100 dollars you have a full swap done with the 3 liter upper and lower.

I already have all the parts ordered by bulk to get the price to low enough to make it affordable.

if you want the part contact me I will be glad to sell you a the peice he is maybe referring too since we already figured that part out in early part of the year but it took time to get it made and to get bulk parts.

Just to give you a idea of what it consist of it is Aluminum machined to fit the Regulator and -6an fittingd with a coupling and nice aeromotive ford male quick connect. And locking rings for the fuel lines. Plus I can add in a adjustable fuel regulator with fuel pressure guage for $75 more to lean out the car for more power .:)
 
todras said:
It's capped off at both ends. Sorry I used 'hanging in the breeze'. Remove it from the car if you feel like. Won't be used any longer. I don't know what you're not understanding Alex. Not that hard. The TB bracket I saw was not hacked. Terry made some extensions. Way different then what I had on mine. Still pretty insignificant compared to filling and grinding the heads don't you think? You also have the injector in the correct place as well. That makes it worth it for me. The 05 might be pricey but it's already 2 years old. Prices will come down as time moves on. For the coil pack Terry used an 01 front cover I think with the 3L coil bracket. See pic above of black SVT with coil pack on front. I just looked on car-part and there are 05 Taurus engines for 1000 with 10k on them. All you would need is an Escape rail, LIM,'01 front valve cover, and Escape sender. I'm sure someone on the boards has an Escape rail and LIM they'd sell from a swap fairly cheap. Get the front cover from a JY and you're good to go.
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Im not sure what you're not understanding Todd. I see every point you are making. I understand everything that is potentially good about this swap: larger coolant passages, relatively simple throttle bracket modifications, fuel rail modifications minimal and kept to factory parts. I am only making the arguments as a point of contention for those that may be interested, this is by no means a low budget swap. 1000 for a motor as opposed to 400 for an older motor. plus with the addition of bugzuki plates, joey's LIM's this is not the nail in the coffin for pre 05 motor swaps.

I keep hearing people bring up the issue of an 'improperly placed' injector, yet have seen NO issues this far with this supposedly inferior injector placement.

I personally like the increased coolant passages and will potentially look into a possible replacement along with some of Joeys LIM mods to keep my split port uppers :)
 
A few issues I have not heard specifically addressed in this thread:

1. Timing cover need replacing with the '05 engine?
2. Oil pan & pickup tube need replacing with the '05 engine?
 
1. I think its a safe bet to say that the timing covers will need to be replaced with the 2.5 covers. The escape covers worked up until recently and no longer fit.

2. Good question. Id also be interested in what kind of block trimming is necessary also, is it like the 03 escape etc taht needs less trimmed than the taurus or....?
 
BurritaSVT said:
Todras

the fuel rail is most likely my idea the same idea we been developing for the returnless system. Funny he comes out with the idea finally hope he not tapped into my PC......lol .........

we are selling these adapters for $100 to make any full 3 liter swap work. So for $100 dollars you have a full swap done with the 3 liter upper and lower.

I already have all the parts ordered by bulk to get the price to low enough to make it affordable.

if you want the part contact me I will be glad to sell you a the peice he is maybe referring too since we already figured that part out in early part of the year but it took time to get it made and to get bulk parts.

Just to give you a idea of what it consist of it is Aluminum machined to fit the Regulator and -6an fittingd with a coupling and nice aeromotive ford male quick connect. And locking rings for the fuel lines. Plus I can add in a adjustable fuel regulator with fuel pressure guage for $75 more to lean out the car for more power .:)
Click to expand...


Guess I'm not following what this is. Are you talking about your custom LIM? Also what rail is used?
 
Pudmunkie said:
I keep hearing people bring up the issue of an 'improperly placed' injector, yet have seen NO issues this far with this supposedly inferior injector placement.
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Yes, it does work but is it the best? Best is to have the pencil style injector with one wide spray as opposed to the old injector with the split spray into 2 ports.
 
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