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Simple clarification of ideal 3.0L build.

K

Kresnik

CEG'er
Joined
Feb 12, 2008
Messages
212
So I've been reading up on doing a 3.0L swap, and believe that I have the basic idea for what I'd need to do, to make the best of the build.

To get the best torque/hp, I would want to use a '04 or '05 3.0L block & heads, paired with the SVT cams and intake manifold. The 3.0L heads, of course, would need to be port matched. Is that correct, or did I misunderstand / misread someplace?

Other than fitment issues between mounts, oil pan and the sort.. that's the bulk of what should be done for the best power-plant to work from – right?

Thanks!
 
That's basically it yes. A few things will have to be modified somewhat but you have the basic jist for a port-matched 3 liter. I'm sure most people will tell you to get an escape 3 liter since they have the least amount of things that cause fitment issues such as the oil pan, and mounts. You'll also need the SVT timing equipment/cover if you're running the SVT cams and intake manifolds.
 
There are going to be gobs of opinions flying in here as to the highest hp/tq 3L option.

My opinion on this topic... I feel that of the threee 3L build types, if done cleanly and tuned well, all result in similar HP/TQ output. Just as some people have 15hp differentials on stock SVT's, you could see wide difference in wheel HP on very similar 3L builds.

Again my preference is for the port matched setup you described for primarly 2 reasons.

1. You can easly drive it untuned with the stock fuel injectors. A tune is advised in all cases, but if you do a portmatched you have nothing to fear with 'normal' driving until a tune can be had.
2. All accessories and emissions equimpment mount in the stock locations. Makes the vehicle a lot easier to service and trouble shoot. You could even take it to a dealer and unless you told them, they would have no idea it wasnt stock. This is important in any state where you have to have emissions testing too!

A lot of guys will advocate for the full 3L options, and it certainly has its merits. I however, think its more complicated to deal with the necessary changes to the fuel rail, IMRC, EGR, vac lines, coil pack, throttle body bracket. All that effort to avoid porting the 3L heads? (and some will say more HP)
 
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full 3l!
and i feel its alot of work/time to port the heads just to avoid dealing with those "issues" posted above. the imrc and egr are tuned out, not an issue, coil pack? relocate it, or better yet, cop's, the tb bracket is the trickiest part.
 
troll96se said:
full 3l!
and i feel its alot of work/time to port the heads just to avoid dealing with those "issues" posted above. the imrc and egr are tuned out, not an issue, coil pack? relocate it, or better yet, cop's, the tb bracket is the trickiest part.
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If anyone doesnt wanna do any porting, simply purchase the replacement LIM from NPG. Problem solved.
 
The split port 3L is for sure the cheapest easiest way to go and still have good gains. I prefer the full 3L simply because I think it makes more power and responds to mods better, it also costs a bit more. The hybrid setup would be my second choice, if done correctly you can get some good results and keep all the original intakes etc. Allllll depends on what you are looking for in the build.
 
troll96se said:
full 3l!
and i feel its alot of work/time to port the heads just to avoid dealing with those "issues" posted above. the imrc and egr are tuned out, not an issue, coil pack? relocate it, or better yet, cop's, the tb bracket is the trickiest part.
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Im with him ^ Full 3L.

you can use the 3L throttle cable bracket if you just pick up a 3L throttle cable. otherwise you can ues the SVT bracket turned upside down with 1 leg cutoff and used as a support to the EGR bolt.

the vacuum lines are cake. simply use the 3 port elbow from the SVT on the passenger side of the 3L manifold. then run the 3 vacuum lines from it to the FPR, HVAC, and EVAP systems. brake booster is a straight shot over to the top port on the back and the EVAP purge line comes up to the one right behind the throttle body.

coil pack can either be deleted in favor of the COPs or can be mounted either on the firewall or off the front valve cover on the passenger side.

all of that is way easier than porting, especially since you have no idea what you are doing to the flow characteristics of the heads. there are a few people who are an exception to that but most will have no idea how it changes the flow.
 
dairdevyld said:
Just to reiterate.
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That's the most expensive route (NPG LIM). You still need to use the 3L rail and injectors. You won't have a IMRC so you'd need to get a tune. That's $800+ more expensive vs. a ported 3L. You might as well pay someone to port the heads. I'd port the heads for someone for way cheaper than that.

If you can do a ported 3L you can run on the stock tune/injectors, which saves you $500 vs. a Full 3L swap. Put that towards other parts (headers, intake, exhaust) and make it even faster. Plus a ported build is easier to maintain (no rigged brackets, wires, vacuum lines, throttle cables, cruise cables) and easier to sell (they wouldn't even have to know it's a 3L to maintain it).

People back what they are running because they haven't necessarily tried the other types. Dyno numbers are all over the place for all the build types. Research each type and do what you want. You'll be happy either way. :)
 
Blackcoog said:
That's the most expensive route (NPG LIM). You still need to use the 3L rail and injectors. You won't have a IMRC so you'd need to get a tune. That's $800+ more expensive vs. a ported 3L. You might as well pay someone to port the heads. I'd port the heads for someone for way cheaper than that.

If you can do a ported 3L you can run on the stock tune/injectors, which saves you $500 vs. a Full 3L swap. Put that towards other parts (headers, intake, exhaust) and make it even faster. Plus a ported build is easier to maintain (no rigged brackets, wires, vacuum lines, throttle cables, cruise cables) and easier to sell (they wouldn't even have to know it's a 3L to maintain it).

People back what they are running because they haven't necessarily tried the other types. Dyno numbers are all over the place for all the build types. Research each type and do what you want. You'll be happy either way. :)
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Me and coog are totally on the same page. Sure porting the heads is time consuming and requires some skill, but its 1 thing to be done, VS the laundry list to pull off the Full 3L. Typically I agree with Striker, but for anyone doing a 3L for the first time...the Full is far more difficult. Until you know the contour engine bay by heart, (like me, coog, striker, and many others), the ported option is going to be easier.
 
While I think a full 3.0L is better, I also think a ported one would be much easier to do for a first timer.
 
everyone keeps saying tune vs no tune, anyone that doesnt tune a ported 3l at some point is half assing it, sorry. i've ridden in ported 3l's and tbh they felt no stronger than a bolt on svt 2.5L. can you run a ported off a stock tune much better than a full 3L? of course, does it make it the right way to do it? not at all. so imho saying the tune issue is a wash.
 
troll96se said:
everyone keeps saying tune vs no tune, anyone that doesnt tune a ported 3l at some point is half assing it, sorry. i've ridden in ported 3l's and tbh they felt no stronger than a bolt on svt 2.5L. can you run a ported off a stock tune much better than a full 3L? of course, does it make it the right way to do it? not at all. so imho saying the tune issue is a wash.
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this! i love you man! someones is finally freakin logical on here.
this is why everyone thinks a ported is better. if u get a 3l u need a tune or ur just as "awesome" as every "sleeper" civic with a fart can. seriously.
taking the tuning part of things out of the equation, a full 3l's requirments take alot less time then porting the heads.
also, you guys havent considers buying svt parts if someone has a base contour or a cougar. thats is more cash. thats also the reason i did full 3l (i have a cougar).
so the only decent reason u guys have to go ported is if you already own an svt. or have all teh svt bolt-ons
nuff said
 
If you can't handle the minor changes needed to do a full 3L you probably shouldn't be doing a 3L period. There is nothing really overly difficult or complicated and if you do a little searching and reading you can see what others have done to overcome some of the issues. There is quite a bit of documentation on what people have done in the past. I personally spent quite a bit of time researching the different types of swaps and how to overcome some of the issues before making any purchases or decisions on how I wanted to do the build.

Here are a few examples of common Full 3L swap issues...
EGR: Either delete or use a 5/8" 90 degree brass compression tee and splice the 2.5L and 3L EGR tubes together.

Throttle Body: Use a taurus 3L tb, taurus throttle cable and a cruise cable from a 99-04 V6 mustang.

Fuel Rail: If return fuel system buy an NPG adapter and use the rail that comes with your motor. If returnless, go to the boneyard and grab the fuel rail and lower intake manifolds off an 00 (maybe '01) Taurus, they use the same style connector as our cars. You can then either heat and bend that rail straight (what I have on my SVT) or if you have the know-how you could replace some of the hard plastic fuel line coming out of the check valve into the main connector into the rail.

IMRC: Unhook, remove and let the tuner do the rest. Nothing else needs to be said here.

Ignition: Either make a COP harness (use the diagram on here and be sure to add the filter capacitor where all the +12v power wires meet up) or find a way to mount the coil pack. If you want to run an ST220 UIM, stick with the coil pack and wires.

That right there is 90% of what you would need. That's all simple and easy stuff IMO. The tune thing as was pointed out should be done regardless of what type of swap you plan on doing. There are ways to band-aid to make the car ok to drive but it is far from ideal and is what I just said a band aid.
 
aboythatskates said:
this! i love you man! someones is finally freakin logical on here.
this is why everyone thinks a ported is better. if u get a 3l u need a tune or ur just as "awesome" as every "sleeper" civic with a fart can. seriously.
taking the tuning part of things out of the equation, a full 3l's requirments take alot less time then porting the heads.
also, you guys havent considers buying svt parts if someone has a base contour or a cougar. thats is more cash. thats also the reason i did full 3l (i have a cougar).
so the only decent reason u guys have to go ported is if you already own an svt. or have all teh svt bolt-ons
nuff said
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Ugggggg. First of all, yes a tune is strongly suggested with any swap. The thing is, a ported one doesn't REQUIRE a tune right away. You can go around and putz and make sure everything is working correctly before you bring it in for the tune....if that is in a day after the swap or a year. You can still DRIVE the car. The closest dyno tune to me is 3 hours away. Think I can just hop into my full 3.0L swap and cruise on down there to get it tuned? With a port, I could do just that. Second, some people like the top end pull of the ported vs the low end of the full. It feels more stock...you bring it in someplace, you can tell them it is stock. And you don't need SVT parts to do a port. You can use the cougar ones just fine....there isn't that much of a gain from the SVT ones. As people have mentioned before, the HP increase was mainly in the tune, not the parts.
 
elraido said:
The closest dyno tune to me is 3 hours away. Think I can just hop into my full 3.0L swap and cruise on down there to get it tuned?
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there are plenty of untuned full 3.0 swaps floating around. How do the tuned full 3.0L's get to the Dyno? Do they tune the car before putting it on the dyno?
 
elraido said:
Ugggggg. First of all, yes a tune is strongly suggested with any swap. The thing is, a ported one doesn't REQUIRE a tune right away. You can go around and putz and make sure everything is working correctly before you bring it in for the tune....if that is in a day after the swap or a year. You can still DRIVE the car. The closest dyno tune to me is 3 hours away. Think I can just hop into my full 3.0L swap and cruise on down there to get it tuned? With a port, I could do just that. Second, some people like the top end pull of the ported vs the low end of the full. It feels more stock...you bring it in someplace, you can tell them it is stock. And you don't need SVT parts to do a port. You can use the cougar ones just fine....there isn't that much of a gain from the SVT ones. As people have mentioned before, the HP increase was mainly in the tune, not the parts.
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hahaha. the closest dyno shop to me was 7 hrs. guess how i got there? i freakin drove. guess how i fixed all the issues on it when i just did the swap? i freakin drove. did it drive? yes. did i like how? no. ALL SWAPS REQUIRE A TUNE. if you dont get one because "its not needed right away" thats the biggest bs iv heard.lol. because a stock tune is for a stock motor. get it???

half assing something is half ass. i leave that crap for ricers

99mistique atx...you sir are right on. theres nothing to it except that. and who cares if you drive an untuned car to the dyno, your going there for a reason...to get it done right.
 
I don't have a 3L yet so I won't be saying which is better, but I'll be going with a ported 3L for ease of install, stock look (insurance purposes, my adjuster is quite experienced and knows what my 2.5L looks like), and because the main reason I want a 3L is to get a cheap new(ish) engine in the car for longer service life.

I will however say to aboythatskates that SVT parts are not expensive if you look around, I paid $125 (shipped, IIRC) for my SVT UIM, LIM, and TB. Paid about $25 for my SVT PCM (not necessary after tune but to nice while I still have the 2.5L) and something like 40 shipped for my 19lb injectors. That is not as expensive as you think, so long as you are patient.
 
DanMyers said:
I don't have a 3L yet so I won't be saying which is better, but I'll be going with a ported 3L for ease of install, stock look (insurance purposes, my adjuster is quite experienced and knows what my 2.5L looks like), and because the main reason I want a 3L is to get a cheap new(ish) engine in the car for longer service life.

I will however say to aboythatskates that SVT parts are not expensive if you look around, I paid $125 (shipped, IIRC) for my SVT UIM, LIM, and TB. Paid about $25 for my SVT PCM (not necessary after tune but to nice while I still have the 2.5L) and something like 40 shipped for my 19lb injectors. That is not as expensive as you think, so long as you are patient.
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with a full 3l. u dont have to buy any of that at all. which removes that WHOLE STEP from a full 3l.
and ease of install? PLEASE. please tell me how long it takes to port your heads...
 
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