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would oil burning off header wrap

155 and 185? thats a pretty big difference... try putting a small amount of oil in the lower ones and see if they come up. could be the rings....a leakdown test may be in order.

the last engine i had in the mustang started like that as well. a little smoke first and then more and more and more. last leakdown test showed 2 cylinders on sealing 40%.
 
155 and 185? thats a pretty big difference... try putting a small amount of oil in the lower ones and see if they come up. could be the rings....a leakdown test may be in order.

the last engine i had in the mustang started like that as well. a little smoke first and then more and more and more. last leakdown test showed 2 cylinders on sealing 40%.



well the engine was cold and hasn't been run in a few days. I am concerned about pulling the plugs from a fully warmed up engine, but I think I will go back and run it for a few minutes and see where it stands.

maybe this is part of the reason when put side by side with a SVT my n/a 3L couldn't pull on it :blackeye:


I also got a leak down tester and that is next up.
 
ok I re-ran the test. this time I cranked the engine untill the needle on the gauge stopped moving

looking from the front

190 195 200
200 190 200


I spoke with my father and his feelings where the numbers where fine.

We did agree that the crank case is getting pressurized. I finally noted some oil on the valve cover that came out of the vent. When I added a oil seperator the PCV popped out of the hose it sits in. I added a zip tie around the pcv and it didn't pop out this time.
 
confirmed this morning that tjhe smoke is coming from the exhaust when i let off the throttle ... it was alittle white ...

ctmystique felt that it was oil. so I believe this supports the crank case being pressurized.
 
confirmed this morning that tjhe smoke is coming from the exhaust when i let off the throttle ... it was alittle white ...

ctmystique felt that it was oil. so I believe this supports the crank case being pressurized.

keep tugging at it brian. dont give up. i've been there too. quite frustrating to build a powerful car and can't get all up on it just yet.
 
keep tugging at it brian. dont give up. i've been there too. quite frustrating to build a powerful car and can't get all up on it just yet.


working on it.


so here is the run down for anyone that can offer any input

  • car smoke white/black/blue after going from wot to closed throttle. It takes a few seconds for the smoke to develope. thinking the white could be unburnt gas (no cats on the car) and the rest is some carbon and oil. It smokes pretty good but only after closing the throttle from wot. also I do believ ethere was no white smoke before I removed the high flow cat.
  • not loosing a significant amount of oil from what I can determine. Now the turbo drain is leaking where it is threaded together at the turbo and the oil pan is alittle also. So the level is dropping but not fast at all.
  • smoke is definately coming from the exhaust
  • compression check yeild numbers that seem to be ok but maybe not great. at 6 psi my car pulls pretty good against a ported 3L.
  • I believe the crank case is being pressurized. added a oil seperator and the pcv popped out from the line to the block. didn't effect idle at all and it didn't spray oil everywhere. I put a zip tie around the hose and the pcv and it hasn't moved since. The front valve cover breath has some oil collecting around it. Also the oil seperator isn't collecting any significant amount of oil.
  • an observation. normally when you remove the oil filler cap when the engine is running you get that loud pulsing sound, this engin doesn't do that. Could the oil seperator between the heads be causing a problem?
  • my apexi turbo timer says the A/F is dropping below 10:1 at wot where my wideband is saying 11.8 to 12.2 from what I have observed.
  • datalogging shows that one bank is 10 to 20% off in fuel from the other.
  • also when the PCM is allowed to adjust fuel it will start leaning out the more it is driven. when this happens A/F goes into the 13's at wot. using a tune that turns the adjustability off, as I am running now, continually has the A/F hitting 11.8~12.2 at wot.
 
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[*]car smoke white/black/blue after going from wot to closed throttle. It takes a few seconds for the smoke to develope. thinking the white could be unburnt gas (no cats on the car) and the rest is some carbon and oil. It smokes pretty good but only after closing the throttle from wot. also I do believ ethere was no white smoke before I removed the high flow cat.
unburnt fuel probably wont burn white. it's probably just a little oil burning, i wouldnt try to read into different shades of smoke.
[*]not loosing a significant amount of oil from what I can determine. Now the turbo drain is leaking where it is threaded together at the turbo and the oil pan is alittle also. So the level is dropping but not fast at all.
You can burn a lot of oil before it actually shows up as an oil loss. once again, i wouldnt read too much into how quickly you are losing oil. it doesnt sound like you have a lot of smoke, so you probably arent burning too much

[*]smoke is definately coming from the exhaust
It's probably safe to say you can never get rid of all the smoke. keep in mind that with a turbo system you cant get rid of all blow-by, and with a pressurized intake it really has nowhere to go, even with catch cans you still will see a little smoking

[*]compression check yeild numbers that seem to be ok but maybe not great. at 6 psi my car pulls pretty good against a ported 3L.
even if you arent running great compression or are getting blowby, it isn't going to show up as a major power loss until you get leaks of up over 20% past the rings. I read an article a while back with a before and after a re-ring. no changes to the motor other than some honing an new rings, leakdown went from 30% to 5%, and they picked up 5 hp, not much...

[*]I believe the crank case is being pressurized. added a oil seperator and the pcv popped out from the line to the block. didn't effect idle at all and it didn't spray oil everywhere. I put a zip tie around the hose and the pcv and it hasn't moved since. The front valve cover breath has some oil collecting around it. Also the oil seperator isn't collecting any significant amount of oil.
PCV blowing out is a definate sign of crankcase pressure. have you tried putting a breather on the oil fill. technically you would be letting unmetered air into the intake at idle, but I ran one on the mustang with no problems. sometimes catch cans don't really work well, it depends on the setup of the system. it might actually be a restriction.

[*]an observation. normally when you remove the oil filler cap when the engine is running you get that loud pulsing sound, this engin doesn't do that. Could the oil seperator between the heads be causing a problem?
interesting observation, is it pulling a good vacuum there? put your hand over the hole and see if you feel a suction on your palm.

[*]my apexi turbo timer says the A/F is dropping below 10:1 at wot where my wideband is saying 11.8 to 12.2 from what I have observed.
is this reading from your stock 02 sensor? if so, don't even bother monitoring it. its a narrow band and basically useless.

[*]datalogging shows that one bank is 10 to 20% off in fuel from the other.
keep in mind if you are burning oil, it will show up in your 02 sensor reading. oil burning will mimick richer. if one bank has blowby and one doesnt, you will see a difference between them in your 02 sensors.
 
Jeff thanks for the info.

I know that some smoke is to be expected but this is just enough that its almost like a smoke screen. ctmystique as a video clip but I can't really post it here, plus I have to get it from him still.

where would I get a filter for the oil fill? never heard of this before.

yes the apexi reads off the stock O2 sensor. I only comment to that as stazi way back said it was actually pretty accurate so it was something I was keeping an eye on.

is it pulling vacuum at the oil fill, I need to check. however my vac/boost gauge sits solid around 18 mmhg at idle. this is referenced off the vacuum lines off the uim.

interesting about the burning oil. I want to swap the upper O2 sensor to see if that effectst he reading. One sensor is brand new and the other is a few years old, both are from the same manufacturer.

do you want to stop by one night on your way home from work to check the car out and to take a ride and let me know what you think? it would be appreciated.
 
At this point I think the best thing to try is to do the leakdown test. you should be able to pick up a breather at any parts store. like i said, it really isnt the best solution to crankcase pressure, but in my case it was really the only thing i could do.

the stock 02 sensor can be accurate, but keep in mind they are still a narrow band. by definition, they are not actually measuring the air/fuel ratio, rather they can tell you when you are at stoic. here is a good definition i found:

Narrowband oxygen sensors are extremely inprecise. They can't tell the computer the exact air/fuel ratio like wideband oxygen sensors. Technically narrowband oxygen sensors produce an exponential voltage signal, whereas wideband oxygen sensors produce a linear current signal. When the air/fuel ratio is perfectly balanced, a narrowband O2 sensor produces a signal of about 0.5 volts (500 millivolts). When the fuel mixture goes rich, even just a little bit, the O2 sensor's voltage output shoots up quickly to its maximum output of close to 0.9 volts. Conversely, when the fuel mixture goes lean, the sensor's output voltage drops to 0.1 volts.

your vacuum gauge is reading at the UIM, i was asking about the actual crankcase. this can tell you if your pcv is working, or if you are getting blowby at idle.

I got your pm, and I don't know if i can stop by this week. it is a busy week, i am meeting up with hotdimmes today, and going to locogringos tomorrow. maybe thursday?
 
If I am reading this correctly, you have breathers on the valve covers, but still have a PCV connected, this will introduce unmetered air into the intake track and can make tuning difficult, which could be a factor in the auto-learn problems.

If I am incorrect and you still have the valve covers connected to the intake track, then you have a direct source of crank case pressurization, unless you have good one-way valves on the vent lines or the vent lines are connected to the turbo inlet providing a source of constant suction, which could also prove to be a problem if providing too much suction to the lines when spooled.

If you have a BOV after the MAF, your off throttle smoke could very easily be the result of excess fuel being sprayed while the metered air is being dumped.

As noted by others, NB O2 sensors are not designed to measure AFR with any accuracy. A NB O2 sensor registers lean - stoich - rich, and does so with no regrad for the degree to which the AFR deviates from stoich.
 
If I am reading this correctly, you have breathers on the valve covers, but still have a PCV connected, this will introduce unmetered air into the intake track and can make tuning difficult, which could be a factor in the auto-learn problems.

If I am incorrect and you still have the valve covers connected to the intake track, then you have a direct source of crank case pressurization, unless you have good one-way valves on the vent lines or the vent lines are connected to the turbo inlet providing a source of constant suction, which could also prove to be a problem if providing too much suction to the lines when spooled.

the valve cover vents do not have breathers. they are plumbed into the intake after the maf and before the turbo. Just as it comes from NPG.

If you have a BOV after the MAF, your off throttle smoke could very easily be the result of excess fuel being sprayed while the metered air is being dumped.

yes the bov is after the maf. however no one else had smoke like this using the NPG kit that I know of. Yes I have noticed the wideband go alittle richer after closing the throttle from wot at times.
 
The oil burning change to the AFR sounds about right. Taking the PCM's ability away from it to make minor changes based on it's ability to "see" what the engine is doing, keeps things kosher. Swapping o2's like you were saying might show you if the readings switch banks.

Have you tried a leak down test yet?

If so and it passes, I'd get the proper sized fittings, hoses and a new turbocoupe valve to make sure it's not a restriction, make sure everything is sealing right and loose the catch can(s) for now. Zip tie the hoses to the fittings.... or even use t-bolt clamps.

I remember Keyser talking about something in the tuning that can compensate for the BOV being after the MAF on our cars. Tom might know, or Burrita.
Though, damn near every turbo contique I've seen or had a hand in building has had the BOV after the MAF. :shrug:
 
planning on running a leak down test. also getting the turbocoupe pcv valve.

I had turbo_fox stop over this afternoon to check the car out. he agreed that the crank case is getting presurized somehow. It appears the longer that I am in boost the more it smokes after the throttle is closed.

Also there is no vacuum when we pulled the oil fill cap off. Also when the pcv line from the intake to the oil seperator was removed it stalled the car.
 
Keep working at, I think you will get it nailed down soon.

I have been suspect of the PCV for some time as that was a big problem with my setup. However, I never got smoke after any amount of boost.

I ran breathers on the valve covers for a short period of time and that combined with the bad PCV made a crazy mess under the hood, OIL EVERYWHERE. The breathers allowed for any high crankcase preasure to escape through the VCVs.

I never ran the bad PCV with valve cover vents tied into the intake, but if I had I imagine I would have had some blowby, smoking symptoms just like you are having.
 
well guys I don't know what to say ........






















Its fixed! :laugh:



all three of the contour PCV valves that I had didn't seal. Got my turbo coupe one today and no more smoke on closed throttle after being in boost.

Now I can get back to a few other things and get the tune dialed in :laugh:
 
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