• Welcome to the Contour Enthusiasts Group, the best resource for the Ford Contour and Mercury Mystique.

    You can register to join the community.

Intrest Check: Harness Bar/Roll Cage

Status
Not open for further replies.
Rally America has slightly different specs than SCCA and NASA, but I see no reason we could not make you a RA legal cage. With a full cage, the main hoop will come fully assembled but many of the other bars will beed to be welded in place individually (they will all be pre cut to fit correctly). Where are you located? If you are close enough, our cage guy can do the full installation also.

Mike
 
CRG Racer24 said:
This is what I'm talking about with a RSTB integrated into the roll bar/cage:
Click to expand...

attachment.php
]

AIA for hijacking the vendor's thread, if you want to talk about this offline, PM me.

That's an interesting cage with respect to preserving backseat room, but from a safety standpoint, it has some glaring problems. First are the severe bends in the rear legs: These need to be straight. And while integrating the rear legs with strut tower bracing is interesting, the attachment points for the rear legs to the strut tower sheet metal put these attachments in shear. Cage or bar main legs need to come down to a load spreading plate that bears against (preferably horizontal) body structure, not in shear on vertical body panels.

If this is a track day roll bar in an otherwise daily driven car, so be it, but it's not likely to get past a real tech inspection for SCCA, NASA, or rally.

On edit: It's hard to tell from the extreme angle in the picture, but the main hoop and harness bar looks to be well designed, would like to see some more pics if you have them.
 
gmorrell said:
AIA for hijacking the vendor's thread, if you want to talk about this offline, PM me.

That's an interesting cage with respect to preserving backseat room, but from a safety standpoint, it has some glaring problems. First are the severe bends in the rear legs: These need to be straight. And while integrating the rear legs with strut tower bracing is interesting, the attachment points for the rear legs to the strut tower sheet metal put these attachments in shear. Cage or bar main legs need to come down to a load spreading plate that bears against (preferably horizontal) body structure, not in shear on vertical body panels.

If this is a track day bar in an otherwise daily driven car, so be it, but it's not likely to get past a real tech inspection for SCCA, NASA or rally.
Click to expand...

Oh, well that's good to know then. I already have a RSTB so I guess it's not that big of a deal for me. Those are good points to bring up for this though.
 
Ive seen cages go through dash boards as opposed to running down the A-Pillar and under the dash. Can we do something like that for the rear?

The cage would go down the C Pillar, and bend down BEHIND the STOCK seats. Requiring a 2-3 inch hole to be cut on each side (on the section where the Third brake light lays) then welded or bolted onto the rear strut tower. The picture shows the bars coming down at a more aggressive angle which will not let you mount the stock rear seat back in unless you cut holes where the cage should pass through. If we pushed them up and over the seat we would be able to retain our rear seat. Do you understand where Im getting at? I would also like my rear seat.

- amyn
 
Wow...so many things wrong with this...

First, ultimately the point of these cages is to be functional for people who intend to race their cars on track or want to look like they do. The priority therefore is cage design effectiveness and safety, not to package around the stock interior trim of a people-hauler. It's strange to me that someone would want to compromise the whole point of a cage, which is to create a rigid survival space with simple and direct load paths to the body. If you want it for bling, grab some pvc and spray paint and go to town. I know I just came off as a complete jackass, but it irritates me when finally someone offers the community a product for the very tiny motorsports demographic here and then it goes nowhere because the people who want to compromise on the proper design distract the targeted effort of those who are trying to create something useful and unavailable off-the-shelf anywhere else.

Second, and I'll make this one short, if you have a cage in a car, you shouldn't even be considering needing to carry passengers in the backseat, unless you're prepared to explain to their next of kin that your cosmetic addition caused their instant death. The same goes for a simple harness bar. I wouldn't even be totally comfortable as a driver in a 6 point cage unhelmeted on the street. This is why a harness bar or simple 4 point hoop are the most viable options to produce in quantity for people who don't trailer their cars around.
 
^^^^^^ I couldn't have said it better. ^^^^^^

I was trying my best at diplomacy with my comments on the roll hoop that CRG Racer24 linked a few posts up, but that thing is just wrong.
 
For me atleast, if I'm going to be running a cage, the backseats are coming out. I already know about the safety hazards with having people in the backseat with a cage. Having backseats in a car and wanting a cage pretty much compromises the whole design of the cage.

I hope that distraction remark wasn't directed to me about integrating a RSTB. I have seen cages that attach, or atleast have some of the cross braces tie in the rear strut towers. Also, a secondary point to a cage is chassis stiffness, but true though it's main reason is for safety. Oh and I'm not mad and didn't take offence at that post Rollin, just merely adding and agreeing to your post :).

And gmorrell, I wasn't saying that that cage was the perfect and role model of all cages, I was trying to inquire if they could integrate a RSTB. I may have worded my post wrong though, which I see now. It might've come across as me saying "That is the roll cage you should make with that RSTB."
 
No CRG, the comment wasn't directed at you and the RSTB request. Sure, if there were to be a main attachment point at the towers it'd be logical to throw a lateral brace across there for the chassis stiffness, it's just not likely that a functional cage would be designed with this layout on this car. I know you weren't promoting the idea of going out of the way to incorporate one.

I had to blow off some steam from the general frustration of trying to encourage real performance parts for this platform, which anyone who's tried racing with one knows all about. The fact that some people at least asked about SCCA/NASA/RallyAmerica specs is encouraging so I sure as hell didn't want this interest check diverting from that course.
 
Alright, cool beans dude :cool: lol. Yeah I totally get that, glad we're on the same page :).

Yeah, I'd like to have an SCCA/NASA spec cage, even though it would be hard to get down to some of the events being in Canada.. though I am technically a member of SCCA, so I'd need an SCCA/NASA spec cage anyway.
 
CRG Racer24 said:
And gmorrell, I wasn't saying that that cage was the perfect and role model of all cages, I was trying to inquire if they could integrate a RSTB. I may have worded my post wrong though, which I see now. It might've come across as me saying "That is the roll cage you should make with that RSTB."
Click to expand...
I never thought you implied that, I think I understand that you presented it as a "Hey, this is neat, can we perhaps incorporate something like this?" It opens up avenues for discussion and gives those of us who have some more experience in these areas (I have cages in two cars...) an opportunity to offer some criticism, and sometimes the critique may not be what you want to hear.

I'm not attacking, just offering my engineering assessment.

I love it when folks want to take their hoopties autocrossing/opentracking/rallying/Lemons/Chumpcar, etc., and I want folks to be as safe as the current technology (and their budget...) allows. But I also agree with rollinstylee in that we shouldn't compromise the ultimate function of this roll bar so someone can use their back seat, which they shouldn't be doing if there's a jungle gym of steel tubing back there.

Cheers.
 
gmorrell said:
I never thought you implied that, I think I understand that you presented it as a "Hey, this is neat, can we perhaps incorporate something like this?" It opens up avenues for discussion and gives those of us who have some more experience in these areas (I have cages in two cars...) an opportunity to offer some criticism, and sometimes the critique may not be what you want to hear.

I'm not attacking, just offering my engineering assessment.

I love it when folks want to take their hoopties autocrossing/opentracking/rallying/Lemons/Chumpcar, etc., and I want folks to be as safe as the current technology (and their budget...) allows. But I also agree with rollinstylee in that we shouldn't compromise the ultimate function of this roll bar so someone can use their back seat, which they shouldn't be doing if there's a jungle gym of steel tubing back there.

Cheers.
Click to expand...

Ah, ok man. Yeah it was more like the latter statement there. I appreciate your critique and/or criticism, it enlightens those of us who don't have as much experience in this field.

Oh and I get that you're not attacking.

I agree with that. We shouldn't compromise the integrity/functionality of the cage just so someone keep there backseats, which shouldn't be used anyway.. as has been said a bunch of times.
 
rollinstylee said:
Wow...so many things wrong with this...
Click to expand...

Whats wrong with it? It has been done before, on cars far better and cars used for much more extreme uses.

It would be nice to be able to keep the back seat and have the same functionality with the cage. all it takes is one bend and longer piping. Making a bend will stop the cage from doing its job. This can also be welded to the C-Pillar as opposed to running through the seat opening. Im sure an engineer can chime in and say yes it can be done.

As you can see pictured here can be done to the back:
cage08..jpg

Does it matter to you if I have people in the back seat? I would like functionality as well as having it being aesthetically pleasing. Unlike all the cheap people on CEG I would actually spend the extra money to have functionality along with a pleasing look. Not looking for any roll cage to drop in. I would rather us have the best and not settle for less. Unfortunately, some pockets cant handle that....

- amyn
 
1) I am an engineer, thanks. A chassis designer at that.
2) Your picture doesn't even show what you're saying. That's the front section of a cage. Yes, the front is usually bent like that out of necessity to work around the body and footbox layout. Do you notice any additional triangulation there? Also, don't go out and now find a picture of a cage with a bend in the back with no supplemental bracing and say "see, it's been done, it's fine." I don't care, there are tons of miserably shady cages out there. It's wrong.
3) Yes, I do kind of take issue with you wanting to carry ignorant people (including yourself) who might not be aware of the lethality of a cage now that you have been made aware that it is extremely dangerous. But hey, it's your life and conscience on the line.
4) This isn't a matter of money. I have no idea where you got that idea. I'm sure you're a rich baller, that's why you mod a Contour and felt it necessary to comment on your deep pockets. Did you even read my full post? Functionally, what you proposed is not good design. If you really want us to "have the best and not settle for less" you wouldn't be making your argument. Don't confuse your desire to have a pleasing look and passenger car functionality with safety cage functionality.
 
So it cant be done? The only way to do it is to go straight from the roof to the strut towers? Sure I understand this cage in the picture is to accommodate the driver and obviously not be in his way while driving, but this cant be done by adding some bracing on the top/rear adding a trianglulation, a bar, some bracing in the rear?

1) Your fighting the fact that IT CANNOT BE DONE.... anything can be done properly. Your the engineer, Im not! Im just asking to make it happen.
2) I see the picture, it is the front, and Ive seen it done to the back. *refer to first three sentences.
3) Its life, live it once, if you dont die in my car god will kill ya down the street. I understand the risks and so does anyone entering my car (its made clear to them) and just to make you happy, I drive my contour like its a two seater almost NEVER giving rides. Preferably never giving rides as well.
4) No I am not by any means rich, I live check to check and I only make like 20-40k depending on my freelance and uncle Sam destroys me since I pay no taxes all year. But then again, Im referring to what usually happens to CEG's group buys, people being extremeley cheap and the GB slowly loses interests and nothing ever happens. What I proposed was a question, that is all. As the engineer's building the cage, the engineer will figure a way to make their client HAPPY as well as SAFE. I have been to several performance shops that drag, drift, AutoX, Time Attack and all say we can design what you want and still be safe.

Answer me that this TRULY cannot be done without compromising the functionality/strength of the roll cage? You cannot!

- amyn
 
Don't know if this has been asked before, but could you not bring the cage back a few more inches then pass it thorough the back deck where the speakers would be. That would at least allow you to not have to butcher the rear seats to get it in.
I realize either way, back seat passengers would be "veboten", but it would be more esthetically pleasing, and easier to make it look good.
Just a thought, keep in mind I have no idea what I am talking about from a technical standpoint.
Also what about just a roll bar option, that can be added to in the future to make a complete cage. I have one of these for my 69 GT6 from Paeco. Ran me about $ 495 plus shipping.

Thanks
 
To qbcsvt:

Please don't try to twist my words. I don't believe I ever said that a cage couldn't be built as you're describing. Certainly a structure with giant bends in it can be made as strong as a more efficiently designed one if necessary. You can add lots of bracing tubes all over the place and make a jungle gym in the back that's just as safe for a fixed-back seated, harnessed, helmeted driver. Still not for backseat passengers, ever. That I will say can't be done. Are you planning to put SFI padding on the whole structure and use all of the aforementioned safety devices when you're driving on the street, plus require your passengers to do the same?

Even if one were made to SCCA GCR specs, I personally don't have any interest in an overwrought, overweight cage designed around something that has no business being a consideration in cage installation. You can have whatever you want custom fabricated at one of your performance shops. I won't buy one (if you could even get SHO Shop to consider producing such a thing), and I know others who've posted interest won't either.
 
rollinstylee said:
Even if one were made to SCCA GCR specs, I personally don't have any interest in an overwrought, overweight cage designed around something that has no business being a consideration in cage installation. You can have whatever you want custom fabricated at one of your performance shops. I won't buy one (if you could even get SHO Shop to consider producing such a thing), and I know others who've posted interest won't either.
Click to expand...

Nor would I.
 
Wow,

I have been out of town for three days, and you guys have been busy ;-)

Just to lob a few of my own thoughts and statments into the mix:

My wife's personal car has bent rear bars on her four point kit. This was done so I did not have to completely rework the back seat. I did not do it so people could ride in the back seat, but I did it because her car can still go to a car show and do reasonably well for condition, and the back seat makes it look better. Bent rear bars can be done, but it is purely asthetic, and it does weaken the design of the four point. I am pretty sure that SCCA and NASA may have allowed bent rear bars some time in the past, but to comply with their rules now, I guarantee they require straight rear bars. Since a four point kit is not really a sanctioned "cage", you can do pretty much what you want, but if you ever wanted to expand it into a legal 6 point kit, it would need to have straight rear bars. The reason they require straight rear bars is to brace the main hoop. If the bars already have a bend in them, it makes them act more likely to fail or act like a "bow".

As for incorporating a rear strut brace in the kit, I think that is very feasible. I agree with Gary, that the rear tubes should mount to the strong point of the rear strut towers. The rear brace can go between the two rear tubes rather than the rear tubes landing on the rear brace. Does that make sense to the group?

For price, I am still working on a harness bar and 6 point price. For the 4 point kit, you can count on it being very close to the SHO version of $575.

Did I miss anything?

Thanks

Mike
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top