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Intrest Check: Harness Bar/Roll Cage

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It seems like you added words into mine. My first post about this states I want it to be AESTHETICALLY pleasing AS WELL AS FUNCTIONAL. I never said I only care about the looks. I also never said anything about passengers in the back seat, you did! I for one am building my car to be presented at car shows and keeping the rear seat is a prettier sight to see. Your sitting here whining about something that can be done to please you in a functional manner as well as I (in both functionality and aesthetics), giving SHO more business.

Im in this group buy if SHO Source will build across the C-Pillar and behind the back seat and at the same time make this a functional roll cage for the few times I go AutoX'in or to the road course. If not count me outta here.

- amyn
 
SHOpartsNW

Sorry for the slow response been very busy. I live in stl, im not sure where you are located but i bet its not close ;) If the cage is pre built and cut that is what Im really looking for. I have the access to weld and make minor cuts but thats it. I was hoping to purchase a pre made weld in cage. Let me know what you think of that for the RA. THanks
 
This will be the last post I make on this subject, as I've stated, defended, and received support of my point enough. Forgive me for misunderstanding the following as an expectation of carrying passengers.
qbcsvt said:
Does it matter to you if I have people in the back seat?
Click to expand...
qbcsvt said:
3) Its life, live it once, if you dont die in my car god will kill ya down the street. I understand the risks and so does anyone entering my car...
Click to expand...

Also your assertion that an aesthetic design will create more business for the vendor is pure fallacy. You just saw posted from the man himself that a bent main hoop support will not pass SCCA inspection. Take a look at other members' posts inquiring about compliance with these regs. Not many people want to buy a cage that's no good for racing.

And with that, I'm done. Sorry for the thread hijack. I hope the harness bar and at least a proper 4 point hoop do make it into production!
 
I responded to what you said! Look at my first post, no mention of people in the backseat. My response was purely aesthetics after functionality has been met. Regardless, People do what they want. I personally do not give rides in any of my cars (Contour SVT cause its has a Harness Bar, and MR2 cause its a two seater). Rules are only there to be broken :) Regardless I dont know how clear or simple I can make this but ill state it again:

SHO Source should produce a cage that is FUNCTIONAL (for rollin: Protects in case of accident, passes any organizations requirements (SCCA, etc) and is AESTHETICALLY pleasing (for anyone thinking this is a good idea: routed behind the back seat).

Im sure this can be done so why not make you happy so you can flip your car over and be safe, and make me happy so I can chill at the car show with my back seat on. Best of both worlds. I dont see why you are disagreeing when Im trying to make this work for everyone.....

Im in this GB if I can retain my back seat, I am interested in the full cage as I already have a harness bar for my OMP Harnesses.

- amyn
 
What rollin and other people are saying (I hope) is that you can have functional without rear seats, or aesthetically pleasing with rear seats and not have adequate safety. 1 or the other. I'm pretty sure SHO Source won't do the latter.
 
I completely understand that BENDING the support causes a weaker point to the cage (Im no engineer but its logic). What I am saying is SHO-Source CAN design a cage that bends behind the rear seats and provide the same protection and safety as having straight supports (by using a stronger metal, adding another bar(s) into the system to support the cage), which can result in making it stronger. Its called ENGINEERING and DESIGN!

I never said do the bends who cares about the protection. I would like the protection as well w/o a compromise. Again, this is the engineer's job to figure out. Maybe running a straight bar to the bottom of the c-pillar and then another straight bar from the strut tower to the bottom of the C-Pillar and 2 straight bars going across acting as a strut tower bar and extra bracing....(<i am no engineer and that may or may not work). I am 100% sure that this can be done, providing the same or even better protection by design......

- amyn
 
qbcsvt said:
Just another car that uses the design I talk about. Looks simple enough to be done for us. I dont mind the bar running across the front driver side either. This one is removable (to accommodate track use as well as street use) How were they able to use it for both uses? :shrug::rolleyes:

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/ccrp_0911_rollbar_installation/main_hoop_crossbar.html

- amyn
Click to expand...
Amyn,
I realize that you posted this as an example of how you'd like the main hoop rear legs to look, and I think we're now aware of the good and bad of this particular roll bar element. I can't speak for the fellows at SHOSource, but I don't believe that they want to build a roll bar like this. If you want a roll bar to do this, your best bet may be to find a fabricator and have one made, or just buy a main hoop from SHOSource and have a fabricator add rear stays to your specifications.

Here is a very good cage design education thread, with plenty of bad, good, and very good.
http://www.corner-carvers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27556

In the mean time, let's see what we can find in the Car Craft Rambler cage, shall we?

No diagonal in the main hoop = FAIL. If this car rolls, that main hoop will likely rack over, and if the driver isn't lucky, it will pull that door diagonal right across his chest. That's going to leave a mark...
ccrp_0911_20_z+1967_AMC_rambler+rollbar_install.jpg


So you understand what I'm talking about, here's a main hoop diagonal done right.
IMG_9444.jpg


The first time he hits that door diagonal and shatters the bone in his upper arm, he's going to regret this piece of tubing.
ccrp_0911_14_z+1967_AMC_rambler+rollbar_install.jpg


Below is a fine example of side intrusion protection. The above diagonal - not so much.
The above diagonal is a great example of "Doing the wrong thing is often worse than doing nothing at all."

This side impact protection seen below does two things. One, notice that it's bent out into the door, this keeps it away from the driver and lowers the chance that he'll be injured if he makes contact with it. Two, the shape of the side impact protection is designed to spread the forces of a side impact into the vertical legs of the cage, again, keeping this portion of the cage away from the driver. Obviously, this isn't practical in a street car, but it does point out (at least for me...) that putting a diagonal side impact bar in a street car is very likely to do more harm than good.
IMG_9446.jpg


I have to wonder how they got full circumferential welds (required in cage construction) on those tube joints against the headliner.
ccrp_0911_09_z+1967_AMC_rambler+rollbar_install.jpg


There is so much wrong with the next two pictures, I don't even know where to begin...
Pins in shear. In a side hit, those tabs will bend in and become impalement points for the driver.
ccrp_0911_10_z+1967_AMC_rambler+rollbar_install.jpg


A tubing stub that will simply bend over in a side impact, boy, that will feel wonderful as it impacts your left ankle.
ccrp_0911_15_z+1967_AMC_rambler+rollbar_install.jpg


As I mentioned above, this side impact diagonal is worse than nothing at all.
 
qbcsvt said:
SHO Source should produce a cage that is FUNCTIONAL (for rollin: Protects in case of accident, passes any organizations requirements (SCCA, etc) and is AESTHETICALLY pleasing (for anyone thinking this is a good idea: routed behind the back seat).
Click to expand...
.....
SHOpartsNW said:
I am pretty sure that SCCA and NASA may have allowed bent rear bars some time in the past, but to comply with their rules now, I guarantee they require straight rear bars.
Click to expand...
 
I am only refering to the picture of what I want. SHO-Source is the brain and engineer to make it work. Add bars (including a cross bar in the main hoop).

OK guys, Im gonna let you guys do your thing here! I see that this cannot be done to SCCA and NASA standards, therefore we cannot use it for racing.... I really am not interested in the straight bar going through the back seat, requiring removal. Apparently, this cannot be engineered to work properly.

I wonder if Manimillion has been able to use his car at the tracks since his bar is bent opposed to straight...... Maybe he can chime in!

- amyn
 
Good idea on just the main hoop. I will be interested in this if SHO Source is willing to do this. I would also like a price qoute?

- amyn
 
jeffersbmw said:
SHOpartsNW

Sorry for the slow response been very busy. I live in stl, im not sure where you are located but i bet its not close ;) If the cage is pre built and cut that is what Im really looking for. I have the access to weld and make minor cuts but thats it. I was hoping to purchase a pre made weld in cage. Let me know what you think of that for the RA. THanks
Click to expand...

Our kit will typically come with the entire main hoop/harness bar/diag bar welded as a unit. The perches may be able to come attached or they may ship loose. The other bars in the kit will all be precut with the correct tubing knotch so you should have little to no cutting required. You will need to weld the bars in the car, but it sounds like you have that covered.

Hope that helps

Mike
 
qbcsvt said:
It seems like you added words into mine. My first post about this states I want it to be AESTHETICALLY pleasing AS WELL AS FUNCTIONAL. I never said I only care about the looks. I also never said anything about passengers in the back seat, you did! I for one am building my car to be presented at car shows and keeping the rear seat is a prettier sight to see. Your sitting here whining about something that can be done to please you in a functional manner as well as I (in both functionality and aesthetics), giving SHO more business.

Im in this group buy if SHO Source will build across the C-Pillar and behind the back seat and at the same time make this a functional roll cage for the few times I go AutoX'in or to the road course. If not count me outta here.

- amyn
Click to expand...

Amyn

We should be able to have a custom design to contour the rear bars to the C-pillar. I did that on my car, but I just wanted to make sure the group understood that is not SCCA/NASA legal. Our cage guy is trying to get caught up with a bunch of work. As soon as he does, we will get cost for all the different flavors of cages so we can start taking orders.

Thanks

Mike
 
rollinstylee said:
This will be the last post I make on this subject, as I've stated, defended, and received support of my point enough. Forgive me for misunderstanding the following as an expectation of carrying passengers.



Also your assertion that an aesthetic design will create more business for the vendor is pure fallacy. You just saw posted from the man himself that a bent main hoop support will not pass SCCA inspection. Take a look at other members' posts inquiring about compliance with these regs. Not many people want to buy a cage that's no good for racing.

And with that, I'm done. Sorry for the thread hijack. I hope the harness bar and at least a proper 4 point hoop do make it into production!
Click to expand...


Ben,

Since we are talking just rear bars, we could offer the kit both ways (straight to meet the rules or bent to not).

edit: When I am talking bent rear bars, I am talking about a slight bend - just enough to clear the seat and slight enough to gusset. The other cage pictured with the near 90 degree bends and no diag bar gave me the willies.

Mike
 
gmorrell said:
I have to wonder how they got full circumferential welds (required in cage construction) on those tube joints against the headliner.
ccrp_0911_09_z+1967_AMC_rambler+rollbar_install.jpg
Click to expand...

Easy, you punch holes in the floor to drop the cage down to get a bead around the whole bar.
 
Sounds good to me. Mike, is there any way to setup the car where we have the "slight" bend up top to clear the rear seats as well as be SCCA/NASA legal by adding some sort of other structural support. Maybe straight bars from the main hoop to the bottom of the seat, or straight bars going down from the top of the main hoop to the bottom of the c-pillar (top of the rear seat) connecting to the bent bar?

I dont really plan to take the SVT out to the course much now that I am doing the paint job. Im too scared to chip it and such. But a couple times here and there may happen at the drag strip, AutoX'in, and Road Course. I will be using my other car for these uses on a frequent basis.....

- amyn
 
qbcsvt said:
Sounds good to me. Mike, is there any way to setup the car where we have the "slight" bend up top to clear the rear seats as well as be SCCA/NASA legal by adding some sort of other structural support. Maybe straight bars from the main hoop to the bottom of the seat, or straight bars going down from the top of the main hoop to the bottom of the c-pillar (top of the rear seat) connecting to the bent bar?

I dont really plan to take the SVT out to the course much now that I am doing the paint job. Im too scared to chip it and such. But a couple times here and there may happen at the drag strip, AutoX'in, and Road Course. I will be using my other car for these uses on a frequent basis.....

- amyn
Click to expand...

The rear bars will either have to be slight bend with gusset or straight to be race legal. The cage rules for SCCA, NASA, etc are very explicit and they do not allow any bends in the rear tubes. It could be 4" diameter 1/2" wall titanium and they would not allow it if there are bends. We will make every attempt to offer the kit with modular options so you can choose the type of rear bars. I hope to get some preliminary costs from the cage builder soon.

Thanks

Mike
 
Sweet. I have to rethink this. Maybe I will end up going with the straight bars, and doing some sort of custom race seat setup in the back to cover the ugly metal and such. That would give me the benefit of looks and function...

Unfortunately, the pictures of the bars I see on manimillions are pretty much in the middle of everything, not giving much space to play with. I wouldnt mind buying 2 matching omp seats to go with my fronts and figure out a way to weld them to the back with harnesses and such.... I would like to know if we can make straight bars allowing enough space to fit 2 race seats in the back.

Either between the bars or outside of them (the bar goes down the middle and meets with a strut bar, bracing and such as well).

If you have any suggestions that will make this cage be functional as well as allow me to have stock or even racing bucket seats would be great. I am not the one with experience to be talking here and asking for some help/advice.

- amyn
 
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