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Vortech build

gmorrell said:
What RPM do these jack shafts run?
Click to expand...

engine crank pulley circumference.... x engine RPM = jackshaft speed............. 20.5"
jackshaft pulley circumference................................................................... ( 3.3"x pi ) x 6500rpm =

12852 rpm ish and for a 2.87" pulley 14776 rpm !!

Found this too. This should help with upgrade decisions.

The V9 has two trims, and F and a G. The F is a left cut of G map. The step ratios differ between these blowers, and this results in different boost ranges. Our V9 has a 1.72 step up ratio @ 48,000rpm. Working with what we had in our kit, the F trim, we set out to optimize the track. Frustrating for us was that this blower made little boost in the original stage 2 configuration.

Next has been the debate about pulley diameter and RPM. All V9 blowers use a gen 3 gear set from Vortech which has a gear ratio of 3.61. This is a key fact when optimizing impeller speed for durability and efficiency.
48,000 is the target RPM for efficiency and 50,000 is the RPM target for durability with our f trim V9. With the stage 2’s 2.62 diameter pulley, we see that at around 6800RP +/-.
Crank P dia. X 3.61(step up ratio) x shift point / all divided by blower pulley diameter = impeller speed.
Downsizing the pulley will be detrimental for two reasons.
1) The R32 has a 5.41” crank pulley and if the blower pulley is reduced in size, the tension required to hold the belt will overload the main axle of the blower causing premature one sided wear on the oil seal.
2) If the pulley is reduced, the RPM would have to be limited anywhere in the range of 6200-6500 RPM to avoid over spinning the impeller, any RPM past 6200 will be on the down side of the flow rate for the V9
Theoretic boost from the Vortech V9 F trim is a simple calculation.
(14.6est BP x1.72)-14.6BP = 10.5psi @ 48,000 impeller speed.
For those at altitude, you would use the est Barometric Pressure for your location less 14.6. HPA is nearly right at Sea level so 14.6 is what we use for our calculations.
Please note; this is the estimated output measured in the boost track just past the compressor and not in the intake manifold.
Instead of focusing on the pulley, we have taken some additional steps to optimize the Blower’s intake track which has resulted in over a 1.2 PSI gain in our boost track at the compressor outlet.
The G trim is worth 1.3-1.5 psi more with the same dimensions that we are setting the F trim up for. it has a step up ratio of 1.8 @ 48,000RPM

IF, you opt for what Vortech labels as an HD unit, this uses the straight cut gears and has a lower ratio 3.45. The G trim with a 3.45 will behave similar to the F trim running the 3.61 as the impeller RPM's shift downward with the 3.45 ratio.
The formulas are in my post above, so you can run the exact numbers and see what you should except for boost out of the blower at 6800rpm based on your altitude from sea level. 48,000 impeller speed efficiency point is the target.
G trim in HD app, 3.45
(5.41x3.45 x 6800)/2.62 = 48,400rpm
@ 48,000 the G yields a 1.8 step up ratio
(14.6x1.8)-14.6 =11.68psi @ 6800RPM – theoretical Boost at blower.
The same G trim with the Gen 3 gears would look like this
(5.41x3.61x6800)2.62=50,688
The max boost with the G trim and Gen 3 gears would be reached earlier in the power band (6500RPM)and the durability threshold would be then just past redline allowing a slightly more usable powerband.
We will have the G trim retro fit in our V9 blower but will retain the Gen 3 Helical gear set to retain the 3.61 ratio, but as you can see, we are speaking about a 500RPM swing, not to bad!
Hope this makes sense.
The Vin plate on your blower will define your trim and gear set and the service staff at Vortech seem very quick at getting that info.
 
.. don't understand your posts in response to the info. i posted guys.

it shows that at 4500rpm with a 3.3" stock jackshaft pulley, you are at the maximum bearing speed of the jackshaft bearings. (9,000 rpm)

I thought you might appreciate knowing why the jackshaft bearings fail early ..... i guess not .... G.
 
oh no i do. i just understood post #324 a lot more than post #321. call it sunday night tired brain vs monday morning fresh brain
 
oh cool, just trying to show my appreciation for everything you guys have helped me with, by doing a little leg work ....G.
 
I'd agree, the bearings in the configuration they run them in are underrated for speed which is why they don't last. Unfortunately due to their location running a bearing with an oil supply would be pretty difficult. The 6205DU's are sealed and use grease for lubrication, if you could run a dedicated oil feed to them they'd probably last much much longer. But for how cheap they are and fairly easy to replace just replace them every so often and you should be good to go. Mine is the only one I've seen or heard of that had damaged caused by the failing bearings and that unit had ~60k on it since it was last removed.
 
Personally if i got 10k miles on the contour without having to pull the motor i'd be verry very happy. 30k mile service interval on bearings is plenty, if higher end units exist then i'll do it next time.
 
thats more of what i was trying to do with the pulley, i call it hardware tuning. bringing in the boost at a certain spot instead of waiting for it to spool like a turbo. sure, ill take some more boost on the top of that.

i never had issues with the jackshaft bearings or any of the bearings actually. oil seals, yeah probably definately.

based on those numbers im actually a little confused why they would pair the incapable jackshaft with the more capable headunit, as i am writing this which jackshaft is this the early splined doomed to fail?

i definately broke that one, i cant remember which pulley that was with.
 
svtfixer said:
based on those numbers im actually a little confused why they would pair the incapable jackshaft with the more capable headunit, as i am writing this which jackshaft is this the early splined doomed to fail?

i definately broke that one, i cant remember which pulley that was with.
Click to expand...

As far as I know, the same bearing was used on both styles. A worn bearing would cause vibration and it is possible it may have contributed to wear/ misalignment in the spline drive.

I'm going to replace my bearings with the shielded type not the sealed. This will give me 14k ... which is only enough for a stage 1. 3.3" pulley to the redline..

If i had a 2.86 pulley, at 6500 rpm i'd be spinning the jackshaft at 14830 rpm. Close enough for me i think ... nothing like the 50% overdrive with the stock bearing ... G.
 
Beans said:
Personally if i got 10k miles on the contour without having to pull the motor i'd be verry very happy. 30k mile service interval on bearings is plenty, if higher end units exist then i'll do it next time.
Click to expand...

I understand what you are saying, but the bearing failiure is what damages the jackshaft. My worry is, how many times can you risk damaging the shaft and the head unit and get away with it ?

I plan to put my head unit on my next car, so it is worth the effort to iron out the creases now, rather than later.....G.
 
Mine is the only one I've seen that actually damaged a jackshaft and it was run way too long before being rebuilt. As long as you replace the bearings every 30k (just a guess) or so I'd say you should be good. Or if you start hearing abnormal noises...

As long as the bearings you are getting are fully sealed you should be ok and they would be a better choice. If not then the dirt that will get in will kill the bearings much faster than the poor lubricant that is in there. The number one reason for bearing failure is dirt or contamination followed by lubrication and then by improper design, load, etc...
 
99Mystique ATX said:
As long as the bearings you are getting are fully sealed you should be ok and they would be a better choice. If not then the dirt that will get in will kill the bearings much faster than the poor lubricant that is in there. The number one reason for bearing failure is dirt or contamination followed by lubrication and then by improper design, load, etc...
Click to expand...

Look at the link i posted, they are metal shielded not rubber sealed. That is why i asked for opinions about how much dirt might get in, considering where the bearings are sited.

Can I ask, how much dirt did you find inside the shaft housing, when you stripped your shaft down ?

These are the same bearings as the stock, but not rubber sealed... meaning they won't overheat and over expand as easily. ... G.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/6205ZZ-Bear...=BI_Heavy_Equipment_Parts&hash=item1e7faa2c0b

Edit; Just spoken to a bearing specialist and he agrees with my logic ... so, looks like i'm gonna be the guinea pig on this one .
 
While the shaft housing isn't 'open to atmosphere' so to speak as it is bolted up on both ends, It's still not the cleanest area either.

Generally speaking shields are better at keeping large debris out and provide a higher speed rating due to it being a non-contact 'seal'. A sealed bearing like the 6205DU Vortech used is going to provide better sealing and protection from dirt and moisture because it is a contact seal. Given the location and overall design, I think the bearing they chose was acceptable. You could try the shielded bearing but fwiw I'd still run the sealed bearing in my car.
 
The guy at the bearing place said he takes the metal shielded off electric motors with fans and carbon dust etc. and they survive quite well considering.

You are right about rubber sealed being better, i assume that over speeding it, burns out the rubber seal and leads to early failiure. Vortech should have selected a rubber sealed bearing with a 14-15k greased speed rating. Anyone found one ?

The fewer times i have to struggle getting the jackshaft on and off, the better.... G.
 
99Mystique ATX said:
Given the location and overall design, I think the bearing they chose was acceptable. You could try the shielded bearing but fwiw I'd still run the sealed bearing in my car.
Click to expand...
something interesting has popped up

Have you got Beans' jackshaft handy ?

would it be possible to use 18 or even 21mm wide bearings on the jackshaft ? ...G.
 
ive called vortech themselves a few times to ask about technical stuff. since they do the repairs "authorized'.. they obviously are able and should tell you about the hardware they chose. maybe worth calling them and asking about it to hear it from the horses mouth.

i would probably ask them flat out if they sell the rebuild kits and how much, probably not and ask them about the rebuild kits out there and what may be a better design. seeing how this was years and years ago its quite likely they have improved the designs. as a matter of fact some of their new headunits are capable of like 30 something psi. check them out they might be the v24 and the units on the bottom there.

also on their website the first pic of them taking the gearset out shows a bearing non sealed. so if thats not for the picture they have a few kinds theyre using.
 
the v-7 description by the way:

The mean little brother to the V-4, in it’s class the V-7 is the most winning supercharger on the planet. It uses straight cut gears (3.45:1 ratio) and the original engine oil lubrication system. This unit is only available with the higher speed bearings. Compressor choices are limited to the JT, and YSi in both CW and CCW (JT only) rotations, only straight outlet.

assuming they use a jackshaft or even if they dont, they have units designed for higher rpms.
 
straight cut gears are noisy .... just thought i'd put that out there.

No doubt Vortech have improved their bearings... will they be interested in an obsolete head unit version?

I've been digging around and found some double row angular bearings.

If the shaft will accept them, then any axial forces shortening the life of the bearings would be resolved ...G.
 
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